Maybe you haven’t been convinced by a good enough argument. Maybe you just don’t want to admit you are wrong. Or maybe the chaos is the objective, but what are you knowingly on the wrong side of?
In my case: I don’t think any games are obliged to offer an easy mode. If developers want to tailor a specific experience, they don’t have to dilute it with easier or harder modes that aren’t actually interesting and/or anything more than poorly done numbers adjustments. BUT I also know that for the people that need and want them, it helps a LOT. But I can’t really accept making the game worse so that some people get to play it. They wouldn’t actually be playing the same game after all…
I’ll answer your question!
Pretty sure I’m on the wrong side of vegetarianism. I love animals, I think they’re worthy of love and consideration from us. I know becoming a vegetarian or vegan would reduce harm to animals, and I’m pretty sure it’s the morally correct thing to do. It’s also hard, it’s alienating, and I know every time I’ve attempted it in the past it’s triggered disordered eating.
My current stance is that society should embrace vegetarianism. If the government were to make a law granting animals status that protected them from being killed for food, I’d support that as a moral good. However, I’m not willing to be fully vegetarian in a carnivorous society, there are too many drawbacks. I know this is hypocritical and kinda intellectually pathetic of me but there it is :(
My mother does wildlife rescues, birds are mostly, then goes home and cooks a roast chicken.
She knows it’s hypocritical. Cognitive dissonance is weird.
Also, it’s not so alienating. I attend dinners with my family, and I’ll eat roast vegies, and bring a side-dish for myself. Over time a few of my friends became vegan (I didn’t convince them to) and it’s exciting to share recipes.
If nothing else, reduce your meat intake over time.
As with most changes people make, the more drastic, the more unlikely it is to stick.
When I became vegan I was a slut for KFC burgers, and I “failed” a few times, but I just kept reminding myself it’s not good for anyone, and mustered up the will power to drive past, and eat at home instead.
I’ve definitely reduced my intake, I just can’t apply the principle in a strict way. And the “alienating“ comment is just my own experience, I’m glad you didn’t have that issue! This isn’t intended to dissuade anyone from trying to be vegetarian, like I said I think I’m on the wrong side of this. It just personally has been difficult to fully align my moral principles and my actions on this matter.
You’re not alone in not living up to your principles, virtually nobody can.
I once tried to vet all the products I was buying to make sure I wasn’t contributing to slave labour, or deforestation, or animal exploitation, and it was exhausting.
It was good to identify brands which were absolute villains, and I still avoid them like the plague, but the amount of willpower it takes to travel to multiple stores and pick only the lesser of evils is something I’m not capable of right now.
I make gradual improvements, which is sustainable.
I am dead-set on repairing what I can, and hate spending money on new things.
It really depends on where you live. Being in BC we have so many Vegan and Vegetarian places that finding food outside of the home is easy. Visiting Calgary AB though, good luck.
Calgarian here. Can confirm.
I went to an event in Alberta, at lunch break I looked at the restaurants in the events center. My vegetarian option was French fries. The rest was hamburger, beef on a bun, beef soup, beef kebabs etc
Alberta wishes it were part of the US.
Good example. I also feel like vegetarianism is probably correct, but I still haven’t gone that way.
I’m in the same boat. My girlfriend is pescatarian, mostly because she thinks animals are too cute to eat. She loves pigs and thinks they are adorable.
I agree that vegetarianism is more sustainable and humane, but I also really like carnitas burritos. I eat way more seafood now and, though she says she doesn’t care, I try to avoid “farm animal” meat when we go out.
I’ve definitely reduced my meat consumption and I will probably continue to do so, but I’m not ready to cut it out yet. I had prime rib for Thanksgiving and it was amazing. Apologies and thanks to the cow.
Your position is about a thousand times better than the denial-ism of most meat-eaters. “Eating meat is morally dubious, but I am making this bad trade off” is better than the usual “Shut up meat is tasty and like they don’t feel pain and if they did it’s only for a moment and it’s longer they deserve it for being lower on the food chain. And the environmental impacts are just made up but even if they were real they’re not a big deal, and if they were then it’s not like it’ll affect me, and if it did well fuck you.”
That is, some people who eat meat refuse to acknowledge that there’s any drawbacks or moral pitfalls. I guess that’s too hard on the self image. Cowards, really.
I try to minimize how much meat I eat. It’s a baby step. It’s hard when like work does an outing and there’s no vegetarian options. I don’t want to make a big stink about it every time. But I’m not going to pretend that eating meat is morally the high ground or good for the environment.
Sometimes people are like “Well I just enjoy a hamburger” as if that’s any sort of justification. Maybe I just enjoy punching cowards in the throat, but we can’t always do what we want, now can we.
I’m all in on lab grown protein
I definitely commiserate with this. This is almost certainly the biggest moral quandary in my life. I think in my lifetime there will be a tipping point where vegetarianism will be a large enough minority to make it personally viable for me, but for the moment I reduce consumption where I can. Breakfast sausage will be the hardest thing to give up for me - but I continuously try meat alternatives in hopes of finding something I like.
Adding an easy or “story” mode to a game doesn’t inherently make it worse. You can still play it with difficulty cranked up to “Dark Souls” or whatever. The fact that there is a separate mode that others can use does not affect you; you need not use it yourself.
“Story mode” is actually an accessibility option in disguise: it can let people who have difficulty with fine motor control, reaction times, or understanding visual and auditory prompts to enjoy the art alongside everyone else. Instead of cheapening the game, it actually expands its influence on the world.
All that being said, no, no game is strictly obligated to be accessible, but why cheapen your art by not making it so?
I mean, if you want your story to reach broad audiences, story mode is good. If you have an artistic vision and can only see your story learned as such, do that. Not supplying story mode is like not supplying condiments at a restaurant. Limiting your client base.
“Story mode” is actually an accessibility option in disguise: it can let people who have difficulty with fine motor control, reaction times, or understanding visual and auditory prompts to enjoy the art alongside everyone else.
This is very insightful.
I have an experience relating to game difficulty and accessibility that you would probably appreciate.
I was playing Rimworld for the first time, and because I was aware of how huge disasters that wipe out most of your work (that you can sometimes build back from) is a part of the game, I felt bad about playing the game on the mode that allows you to load earlier saves; I would find losing progress in this way more stressful than fun, so I wanted the ability to reverse poor fortune or choices, even if it felt like I was “dishonouring the intended experience”.
However, a friend (who was the reason I had bought Rimworld in the first place, and who enjoyed the chaos of no-save mode) pointed out that whilst the no-save mode may be presented as the default, the mode with saves enabled is presented as a perfectly valid way to enjoy the game. This made me feel immensely better about it, and I was able to dispel the silly guilt I was feeling. It highlighted to me the power of how we label difficulty settings and other accessibility settings.
Games are a funny medium.
I don’t particularly find the acessibility argument that compelling. Sure, we must make experiences as acessible as possible, but at a certain point the experience gets degraded by it. You can’t make a blind person see a painting, and if you did, it wouldn’t be a painting.
I think it’s sort of a matter of perspective. You may feel like having an easier mode degrades the experience, but for others it makes the game enjoyable/playable to them.
Do you have the same perspective on people that like the sandbox style of the sims games and so would use cheat codes for infinite money? It certainly alters the experience in a way that is different from the intentions of the devs, and to you may degrade the experience of the game, but for other people it elevates the game, and makes it more interesting or fun for them.
A similar argument could be made about the modding scene. Although it’s community driven rather than done by the actual devs of the games, allowing people to mod the game to customize their experience with quality of life mods, or mods that make the game easier/harder allows people to tweak the game more to their tastes and what they’re looking for in a game.
You might say that if a game isn’t appealing to someone they should just play another game. But if the game is very close to the experience they are looking for, but there are a few hangups that are a deal breaker for them, why force them to look for the perfect unicorn game instead of acknowledging that allowing players to cater the game to their own tastes is better. Having an easy mode does nothing to harm you, or your experience of the game, you can still play at your desired difficulty. And it only opens the game up for other people to enjoy.
You can’t make a blind person see a painting. But you can put a braille placard in front of it with a description of the painting. Or have audio tours that describe the paintings. And to you, that may degrade the art, but for someone who otherwise wouldn’t be able to experience it at all, it allows them to at least share somewhat in the experience that everyone else in the exhibit is having.
Good old klapaucius:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:!:! I wish there was some use to me still remembering that word today.
You can also offer an audible description of the painting, and, just so the analogy makes sense, you can warn the audience that hearing the explaination isn’t the experience the author intended to craft.
CrossCode did that…
The point I’m making is that you need not alter the painting. Adding an option to a game does not alter it for those that do not select it.
You’re arguing for letting perfect be the enemy of good. The fact that a blind person can’t perceive the visual aspect of an experience doesn’t mean that they should be excluded entirely.
perfect be the enemy of good
Even worse, deciding that perfect is the enemy of good on behalf of another person.
Given the person has no access to “the perfect”, this is basically exclusion on ableist grounds.
Adding an option to a game
(or an alternative modality like audio description)
Mona Lisa is not a good example here because it is a single work. Games are mass-producible. If you steal Mona Lisa no-one can experience any more. If you add a story mode to the game, nothing at all is reduced from other modes of the game.
Additionally, if you consider strictly simulation games, their difficulty is just a configuration of different amounts and pacing of things happening in the game. There is no foundation on which number configurations are more correct than others.
By extension, all games simulate a real or imaginary world, and these numbers’ configuration are in the control of the designer. Again, no one of the possible worlds is inherently more privileged than others.
How does the existence of an option you never use degrade your experience?
For it to work well the developer has to change the game’s design to allow for the easier mode to work. If they don’t, it wouldn’t offer a good experience for neither the easy mode nor hard mode players.
The vast majority of games these days handle difficulty levels by simply tweaking the numbers of how much damage you take and deal. They build the game around a “recommended” difficulty and then add hard/easy modes after the fact by tweaking the stats.
Other games simply turn off the ability to die, or something along those lines.
In both of these cases the game is clearly built around the “normal” mode first. I’d be curious to see a clear cut example of that not being the case.
It would be pretty crappy to never give a description of a painting to a blind person though. Like could you imagine if we never described the Mona Lisa to a blind person and they just to guess what it was a picture of.
That’s pretty much like saying to a person to watch a let’s play of the game rather than play, which is fine but not really the point.
Using this logic, you would have to accept that people that are very good at a given game from the start have a fundamentally different experience to people that are very bad at a given game. And people that are average have another experience again.
So who’s having the “true” experience? Is the good player having a degraded experience because they feel like they’re playing on easy mode? Is the bad player having a degraded experience because they give up half way in? Is the average player having the “intended” experience of each part of the game feeling earned and hard won?
The reality is it’s impossible to give the “intended” experience to everyone regardless. And if the average player experience is the intended experience, having difficulty settings will actually let the other players experience that, not take away from it. If the very good player and the very bad player can fine tune it so their relative experiences are the same as the average player, hard but not impossible, haven’t you actually given the intended experience to more people rather than degrade it?
I think one of the really neat things about games as a medium is that “the experience” is inherently a super malleable concept. Gaming blows my mind when I think about how adaptive you need to be to run a tabletop roleplaying game, like Dungeons and Dragons — no matter how elaborate your plans are, players will always find a way to throw a spanner in the works. Video games have the same unpredictability of how players engage with the world you’ve made, but a much smaller ability to respond and adapt to ensure that they’re getting the correct “intended experience”.
In some respects, I agree with you, because when I play games, I care a lot about the intended experience. However, the reality is that I bring too much of myself to any game that I play to be able to think of my experience in that way, and I think that’s probably one of my favourite aspects of games as a medium — a dialogue between gamer and game developers. Especially because sometimes, the intended experience of a game isn’t well executed; there are plenty of times I have gotten lost or confused in games because the game didn’t sufficiently communicate to me (or other players with similar experiences) what it expected us to do. Part of the role of the game designer/developers role is to be guide the players so they get something resembling the intended experience.
Honestly, part of why I am on the pro-accessibility side of this issue is because I’m a bit of a snob — I think that being able to adapt a message or experience to a diverse audience shows a singularity of vision that’s more powerful than experiences that target a much smaller audience.
For example, let’s say that the subjective difficulty level of a game (the “experience”) equals the “objective difficulty level” of a game (the difficulty setting) minus the player’s skill level. For the sake of this example, let’s imagine that 10 arbitrary units is the correct level of the subjective difficulty level, and above/below that, the experience is degraded; also, let’s say that player skill ranges from 1-10, with most people clustering in the 4-6 range. In that world, if a game could only have one difficulty mode, 15 ish would probably be best, because 15 (objective difficulty) - 5 (average player skill level) = 10 (intended subjective difficulty level). I don’t begrudge game Devs for targeting limited audiences if that’s what they feel capable of, but I do massively respect the craftsmanship of being able to build a game that can serve a subjective 10 to a wide range of people, by having a range of difficulty settings.
Hi! I’ve had two strokes, and my hands don’t work as well as they should! Should I be excluded from the hobby, so you don’t have to look at an extra menu option?
What you’ve got here reeks of elitism.
Disability comes for everyone. Sometimes death gets there first. You aren’t unique.
I’m sorry to hear that, and I certainly dread the day I won’t be able to engage with the hobby the same way. But there are a million games that don’t require fast reaction times and precise lightning fast inputs.
Dude, just let everybody play everything. And if you have to glance at “easy” real fast to make sure you’re not pushing “hard (developer intention)” then that’s fine. Hard is still there.
And thanks for the downvote. I don’t know if you’re interpreting a downvote as “doesn’t add to the discussion,” or “this makes me angry” or “you shouldn’t be disabled, you fucked up”, but it just goes to show what’s up. No one else came along in the last 33 minutes.
The point is just that how can a developer create an experience where you have the satisfaction of succeeding against overwhelming odds when you offer the easy mode where you win by pressing one button? I understand that people play games for a myriad of reasons, but one of those IS to put in effort.
Also it was just a mistake, I don’t really care to upvote or downvote people unless it’s something egregious or great. You really shouldn’t care about it, especially since lemmy doesn’t even keep track of it.
You have your satisfaction by selecting hard. You don’t need to deny an easy difficulty to others.
Or are you the sort that would pick easy if you saw it?
Also this whole conversation is dumb because, until you get off your ass and make a game, you have literally no input whatsoever.
I’m gonna go back to my PS2 Silent Hill play through on beginner difficulty, where I can whack guys once instead of five to nine times. It’s the vibes and the environment.
OP, you’ve made the classic mistake of putting your opinion in the post instead of as a comment, now everyone is replying to your opinion in top level comments instead of your question.
This is the best practice, especially for AskLemmy but it also applies to news and other media threads. It’s best to put your personal thoughts and opinions in a top-level reply, while keeping the post body to clarifications or summary of the posted question or media.
I am always on the right side of any discussion. Otherwise I wouldn’t be on that side.
A lot of people seem to feel this way. Don’t let it become a tautology, however. It’s your opinion because you think it’s correct, NOT it’s correct because it’s your opinion. For example, plenty of folks justify homophobia because gay people make them feel icky and never examine whether or not their intuition is actually correct. You still have a responsibility to examine your conclusions on a topic and readjust as necessary!
It’s your opinion because you think it’s correct, NOT it’s correct because it’s your opinion.
Exactly this.
Yep. I don’t argue for things I don’t believe are the side I should be on. Sometimes I make tongue-in-cheek arguments (think A Modest Proposal) but that’s not in a discussion. I don’t get into arguments as a sport or to make people angry, so why ever be on a side I think is ‘wrong’?
I have been bashed for saying sth similar in response to “you think your opinions are better than other people’s opinions”. Duh, yeah? Otherwise I would hold the other opinion.
I’m glad you are like that, but dometimes people want to be convinced of the opposite side but haven’t been able to, yet.
Same! I have 100% certainty in any topic that I happen to be on, and if i’m not 100% certain then I immediately excuse myself and hold my hands to ears screaming “lalala I have no opinion!” because it would be ignorant of me to even debate a topic I am not a complete expert on, said no one ever.
Come on. Discussions aren’t binary. There are bits of that side you agree with, and bits of the other side you agree with and that weird eclectic mix puts you on uncertain spectrum that mostly leans to one side but oscillates in the middle at times, and that’s completely okay because it’s how you update your priors by being corrected by others whilst understanding that a lot of well informed stances are balancing on a few struts
Veganism. I don’t have any problems with most vegans. Most go through a phase of trying to convert you, but the ones I know and associate with have come out the other side. We all know that these positions would make the world a better place. I don’t think I have the will to do it. Might be wrong though.
What about not trying to annoy vegans?
As a Vegan, I can honestly say some Vegans are the worst. LOL. And I have found through the online rave review of products that Vegans are liars too. :)
When my wife brings a product home that had great reviews by Vegans, I’m like ah crap, this is going to be shite.
My old man yelling at cloud rant :
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i hate vegan products that try to position themselves as the vegan replacement to a non vegan product. They have their own qualities, and it hurts the product that it is compared to the meat alternative. If someone wants to eat chicken, no amount of marketing and spices will make it taste like chicken and will always be inferior to their meat counterparts for the meat eater.
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Vegan recipes on internet are 95% terrible. They try to put 100 flavors in one meal. Take whatever recipe your normally eat with meat and simply replace the protein for a vegan protein of your choice (pvt, tofu, bean curds, etc). Grill your tofu to your heart content, make that bean curd extra delicious by dunking it in soy sauce and eat with vegetables and rice or make a simple rice and bean with a side of fresh avocado.
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There are so many good vegan products with fucking terrible marketing. Meat eaters will not change their habits because you green wash your marketing. Go balls to the wall with that shit.
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I disagree on this point. It’s convenient for a vegan, vegetarian or just someone who is trying to eat less meat to be able to make a substitution in a recipe. Tempeh is a great protein, but you have to know how to prepare it and what dishes it will work best in, whereas vegan “chicken” or plant based “beef” can be easily substituted 1:1 in recipes. As you get more comfortable, you can start substituting things like ground tofu, lentils or seitan, but having the culinary shorthand is helpful for lots of people.
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I’ve had the opposite experience. Most of the vegan recipes I’ve found online use clever plant based substitutions that aren’t processed meat alternatives. A good exercise is to take your favorite dish and Google “vegan [that dish]” and see what ingredients are in those recipes. Many of the recipes you find will likely have whole food ingredients!
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I don’t think vegan food brands are trying to change hearts and minds necessarily. I think they’re just providing easily substitutable alternatives for people who have already decided to eat fewer animal products.
This is why I prefaced my comment with the old man bit. There is a lot of exaggeration in my comment.
My experiences has been that meat substitutes marketed as such are usually chuck full of spices, ultra-processed and just taste bad on their own. 95% of the recipes I make with meat, I often replace with a vegan alternative protein.
I do think that vegan brands try to appeal to a lot of meat eater and lean hard on the green/healthy marketing, but it has been played out and abused by marketing and doesn’t mean much anymore. Just market the products on their own merits.
There is so much good vegan food out there, but it’s often branded as the X alternative. IMO, it hurts the product because it pidgeon hole it in that comparison.
But your points are entirely valid, and my point are really just an uneducated opinion without backing data. I just know that I avoid vegan products marketed as meat alternative to X because they taste terrible 99% of the time.
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Pretty good rant.
If anyone likes pumpkin pie for thanksgiving, but doesn’t want to use milk/eggs…this recipe turns out amazing, and family didn’t notice it was Vegan. https://www.noracooks.com/vegan-pumpkin-pie/
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Pronouns. I get that they matter a lot to some people, and of course it’s super annoying (if not worse) to be referred to in the wrong way, but I find it unreasonable to demand being referred to something outside of the gender binary, simply because that’s the way language works.
I am aware that English has used “they” for a person of unknown gender for ages, but for one, I don’t think it’s something that you should demand people call you when they actually know your gender, but also I really hate that this is making its way into other languages like my own, that has never had this convention. Inventing entirely new pronouns is just ridiculous, I have a hard enough time to remember your name.
I am also aware that language evolves, but this is not evolution, it’s forced, and if one group of people can try to force a change they prefer, I’m as much in my right to resist it if I don’t like it.
People are super passionate about this though and in fifty years I’m sure I’ll be seen as a fossil for not getting with the times now - in fact I’m sure certain people see me like this now.
Using someone’s preferred pronouns is a sign of mutual respect, your refusal to do so is a sign of disrespect to those around you. It’s really that simple, bud.
Do you call people Johnny when they tell you their name is John? It’s literally the same thing, they’ve explained how they’d like to be addressed, and deviating from that uninvited is just rude.
I get that they matter a lot to some people, and of course it’s super annoying (if not worse) to be referred to in the wrong way
It’s dehumanizing and disrespectful, it’s not annoying. I’ve had family members refuse to use an individual’s pronouns, but in a heartbeat correct themselves for referring to a pet by the wrong pronoun. I’ve had people go out of their way to call me “man, guy, dude, bruh” when I’m fem presenting, and I’m the only woman they’re speaking to that way while I get the “I talk like that with everyone, bruh,” excuse.
and if one group of people can try to force a change they prefer, I’m as much in my right to resist it if I don’t like it.
Correct, but then you don’t get to complain, like you are, that people get upset with you about it. You’re not free from the consequences of those around you simply because you have the right to feel differently on something like basic human respect for your fellow people.
I don’t get to complain that no one wants to have dinner with me just because they don’t like me taking food off their plates, even though I don’t agree with that societal norm.
We’re still in the growing pains version of it, though, where there are far too many people taking advantage of a legitimate position just for the attention. This isn’t unique to the gender conversation, but it definitely suffers from it.
Another issue is that there is a component of needing to be vocal and firm or no one will take you seriously, but it’s a fine line between that and being obnoxious and over-asking…reminding someone who wants to be considerate is good, being offended at someone intentionally mis-labeling may be necessary, but being offended by honest mistakes or berating someone for not realizing zhe or zher or some newly defined label was a thing definitely hurts the cause.
We’re still in the growing pains version of it, though, where there are far too many people taking advantage of a legitimate position just for the attention.
I would argue “who cares?” And please, explain to me how many “far too many” is? Because the trans population makes up under 1% of the US population, so I’m really trying to wrap my head around <1% is “far too many” of anything.
This is just excuses, I’m sorry. I get “zhe/zher/zhers” is awkward to see, but watch this: “Debra is amazing, have you had zher apple pie?”
Phew, nearly suffered an aneurysm on that one. 🙄
Another issue is that there is a component of needing to be vocal and firm or no one will take you seriously, but it’s a fine line between that and being obnoxious and over-asking…reminding someone who wants to be considerate is good, being offended at someone intentionally mis-labeling may be necessary, but being offended by honest mistakes or berating someone for not realizing zhe or zher or some newly defined label was a thing definitely hurts the cause.
First, your last line is bullshit, it’s the same logic that’s been used for every single oppressed group asking for basic respect from their oppressors.
When women standing up against sexual harassment really started to gain national attention, the news anchors made the exact same arguments you’re making now. “Oh, it’s just a man being friendly! Now men won’t want to hire women because they’ll be sued! We’ve behaved this way for decades and now it’s a problem? God, Debbie is such a cunt for reporting me for rubbing her shoulders, I was just trying to be nice!”
When women reported it, it was often, “They’re just looking for a payout/attention! Why didn’t they bring this up for the last X amount of time?! Why do women have to be so rude about it?!”
When gay marriage was being fought for, what did we hear? “Oh, can’t they keep that behind closed doors? It just makes me uncomfortable, I don’t think the children should see that! It’s always been Adam and Eve for me, I’m 40 years old, how am I supposed to learn to use the word “partner” instead of “husband/wife”?!”
Notice how it’s always the oppressed who are asking for too much, always? Always, it’s always the oppressed asking for too much. But when they say, “Hey, society, can you do XYZ to show me some basic dignity and respect?” what are we met with?
“We’re still in the growing pains, people are taking advantage, we need to be patient, you need to know your place and when it’s ok to speak up, but make sure you know the correct amount to speak up, otherwise they have the right to just not respect you.”
For fucking words, that’s what y’all are doubling down on, something that costs you no money or effort beyond treating someone like a person, and respecting their reasonable request. They’re not asking for you to paint their face from memory, or have their star-chart memorized and they yell at you for not knowing that Mercury was in retrograde, or chastising you for not knowing the exact date and time they were born.
If they’ve introduced themselves and their pronouns, and you can’t be bothered to respect that, you’re just a dick at best and transphobic at worst. It’s really that simple, it’s a sign of respect, and any excuse for why you can’t use words is just an excuse to disrespect those you don’t feel deserve it. And that’s an internal issue the individual needs to get over, but the LGBTQ+ community doesn’t need to coddle a society that can’t be bothered to show them the respect of using proper pronouns.
You seem to be primed to take everything as bad faith almost intentionally. Not understanding that arguments have two sides is what keeps conversations from happening, not what settled them. Yes, it is not a huge burden to remember someone’s pronoun, but people have a lot on their mind and something that has been one way for the majority of most people’s lives is absolutely going to take some time ‘not to get wrong’ even for people who are honestly trying, yet you act as though it’s rude not to suddenly find it natural. If i told you I’d find it rude not to remember everyone’s favorite color, would you jump to making an effort to learn everyone’s favorite color? Now, was your first instinct when reading that example an indignant response that it was insensitive because ‘favorite color’ isn’t as identifying as a person’s gender?
I understand that many people discount a person’s gender or sexual preference, or even sexual abuse in order to minimize it, use examples of people taking advantage of it, or lying about it in order to dismiss the larger group of people who have real claims and preferences and experiences… But those things come from a real place too, and trying to bully or shame people for it is the same thing you accuse others of.
Honestly this conversation has gotten far too broad to even address all the differences of opinion we have, but if there’s one thing we might be able to agree on is that people don’t like being minimized, whether it’s about their gender, or if it’s their struggle with understanding sometimes struggle with gender. If you insist on insisting that the only valid argument is that everyone takes it as seriously as you do, you’re accomplishing a net negative for the cause.
Yes, it is not a huge burden to remember someone’s pronoun,
Then stop arguing otherwise. Stop making excuses. We get it, no one is going to get it the first time, no one is going to remember everything.
By your logic, fascists deserve a seat at the table because otherwise we can’t have a discussion about fascism. Racists deserve a seat at the table because otherwise we can’t see their point of view. White supremacists need a seat at the table because otherwise we’d only hear from those they hate.
But those things come from a real place too, and trying to bully or shame people for it is the same thing you accuse others of.
So you’re just, again, victim blaming and refusing to show any examples of this supposed attention seeking. You got anything beyond a handful of cases over the decades?
You’re right, the amount of respect a person receives should be based on the gender pronouns they use and the overwhelming inconvenience they apparently place on the general population. Yep, respect for a human being should be a debate.
When are you going to blame trans people for Harris losing like the rest of the liberal base seems ready to? I mean, we have to engage with that point of you, right, we have to tolerate the intolerant, right?
Right.
That’s where you lose the argument entirely. We don’t have to tolerate the intolerant… Nothing i said suggests that outside of your insistence on being offended. You don’t tolerate the worst examples of the other side, but you at least take a breath to try to understand the well intentioned members who don’t see things your way.
Except for the most extreme cases you can come up with, nothing is black and white, everything is grey, and your insistence that i must be a bad guy because i challenge anything makes you not terribly worth engaging.
Except for those baiting the conversation, everyone has reasons for feeling how they do on a topic, even if it’s just defaulting to it because of their social circle, but you are not a good champion of the cause of all you can come up with is mocking straw men arguments and feigning indignance.
Except for the most extreme cases you can come up with, nothing is black and white, everything is grey, and your insistence that i must be a bad guy because i challenge anything makes you not terribly worth engaging.
I’m still waiting for evidence of all of these numerous cases of people using pronouns for attention, and all these people making up sexual assault claims. You got any?
Since I’ve clearly lost the argument entirely (sure, bud, sure), you clearly must have a plethora of evidence and examples that actually support your claim.
This entire comment is attacking me, and nothing that I actually said, while using generalizations to paint this picture that I don’t understand unless I can use extremely specific examples.
What part of “This entire debate is a debate about respect” do you not understand, and what argument is there to be had about that? I’d love to hear it, I’d love for you to actually engage with anything I’ve said beyond “yOu HaVe To UnDeRsTaNd ThEiR pOiNt Of ViEw.”
I already covered the grey areas, if you actually what I wrote, you’re just being willfully ignorant about it. “No one should be yelled at for a genuine mistake, but eventually it’s not a mistake and you need to grow.” Wow, yeah, whole lot of grey area in that one too, PHEW, we’re demanding the world.
but you are not a good champion of the cause of all you can come up with is mocking straw men arguments and feigning indignance.
I asked you for statistical evidence to back up your claims and you’ve provided none, so I’ve had to argue your own ridiculous arguments that fell apart under the most basic scrutiny. Sorry you have a terrible take on this? That’s my fault too, that’s me mocking straw men arguments (so you’re admitting that your arguments are all bad faith, straw men arguments, glad to hear it) and feigning indignance?
I’m not feigning anything, once again, using preferred pronouns is basic respect to another human being, and while no one should be offended by genuine mistakes, your continued defense of not showing trans people respect if their pronouns aren’t up to your standard, is transphobic.
So, I apologize if someone who refuses to provide any evidence to back up their claims that there are so very many instances of people making up pronouns, or any instance of how someone requesting certain pronouns creates such an undo burden on the rest of society, isn’t worth me engaging with further.
Keep making excuses for why you have it so much worse than the marginalized group who’s request for respect is apparently a fucking debate.
Absolute clown.
There’s a guy on here with great opinions and I like to hear him talk, but he refers to himself in the third person all the time and it makes it hard for me to take him seriously. It can be a real drag on the conversation to suddenly be conscious of the pronoun of an individual, when you just want to speak to them like an equal.
I know who you’re talking about, drag, drag has called me a racist, Trump supporting fascist who wants drag and all of drags friends dead because I had the audacity to criticize Harris and the DNC. Drag backed off that when I pointed out to drag that I’m a trans veteran who voted for Harris.I’ve never had difficulty understanding drag, and as much as I think drag is full of hot air, I respect drag enough as a fellow human to refer to drag in drag’s preferred way. Drag is using the third person, this has been a trope in popular media for years and no one has complained about it.Did y’all have a hard time relating to and understanding The Boulder in Avatar the Last Airbender? He refers to himself as “The Boulder” instead of his pronouns, where’s the uproar around that?
Let’s take it to real life: I googled it, pro wrestlers The Rock, The Big Guy, Santina Marella, Kanyon, and Stone Cold Steve Austin all regularly used the third person to refer to themselves. They used other pronouns as well, I’m not denying that, but you all act like this is some completely unheard of new thing that only these woke leftists are doing.
It’s respect, full stop. It’s the equivalent of someone saying their name is Rajesh and you say, “Eh, Steve is easier, I’m used to the name Steve, I can’t pronounce whatever you just said so the only way we’re equals is if I can just call you Steve.” That’s insane, y’all need to stop making excuses as to why showing respect to another individual is sooooooo hard.
And FYI, in writing this, I only had to go back and make three changes where I used an improper pronoun in when referring to drag. Again, if I can show basic respect to someone who called me a fascist nazi, why can’t y’all do it for your friends, family, and coworkers?It’s not hard, and I’m 30, so it’s not like I was brought up with zhe/zher/zhers and all this other stuff either my entire childhood, I didn’t learn what transgender was until I was in the Navy.Edit: Drag told me I insulted drag and lied to Lemmy by defending drag here, so I’ve crossed it out and will let drag defend drag’s pronouns alone. Drag doesn’t want my help because, in drag’s own words, I’m a Nazi who purposefully misgendered drag and only wrote the above to insult and hurt drag.
Yet refuses to apologize for falsely calling me a Nazi:
I don’t have pronouns, you can only call me by my name, Shadow the Headgehog!
Is “dude” actually still considered gendered? I literally call everyone dude
Someone will come along and say “You fuck dudes?”. To which I respond : Yes. I fuck my dude.
Language evolves because people force it to. It’s not a natural organism independent from our choices. We choose taboos, we choose meaning, we choose pronunciation, we choose loanwords. It’s all evolution. The idea that it’s “forced” is ludicrous because no one can take words from you nor force you to use them. Your words are your own and no one is capable of stopping you from speaking them. But, if you choose not to respect the wishes of others, you will suffer consequences.
The reason some languages have a gender binary is often because that society forced a gender binary on people to control them. There are plenty of non-Euro languages that have no gender binary built in. Language is an active participant in social oppression and changing language is an active countermeasure to that oppression and indeed a tool in shaping future society.
Inventing entirely new pronouns is no more ridiculous than inventing yet another television show character or yet another tiktok dance craze or yet another romance novel or yet another $15/month subscription service that does the same things other service do or writing yet another magazine column.
We put effort where we care. That’s how we work. Where you put your effort shows you what you care about.
Based
Language evolves because people force it to.
Sometimes, yes, often, no. New slang is naturally picked up and often makes it into the common vernacular, not because people are forcing other people to use it, but because people voluntarily start using. The same goes for loan words. The enter the language, and sometimes get mutated over time in that particular language. When “tablet” became popular someone tried to pick a Danish word for it, but it didn’t stick. Same goes for many other computer-related words, which ended up just being the English word.
But, if you choose not to respect the wishes of others, you will suffer consequences.
This is the aggressive attitude that immediately makes me reluctant to adhere to any special pronouns people may choose. I don’t know if you meant this as a lightly veiled threat, but people can become very aggressive if you “misgender” people.
The reason some languages have a gender binary is often because that society forced a gender binary on people to control them.
I haven’t heard this before, do you have some reading material I can explore?
Inventing entirely new pronouns is no more ridiculous than inventing yet another television show character or yet another tiktok dance craze or yet another romance novel or yet another $15/month subscription service that does the same things other service do or writing yet another magazine column.
I would tentatively agree, if not for the fact that “the consequences” you mentioned above for ignoring any of these things are that I don’t have to suffer them. The consequences for misgendering Elliot Page is ostracization, even if he isn’t in the conversation or likely to ever hear about any conversation I will ever have about him.
Where you put your effort shows you what you care about.
That is true. And I really don’t care that much about trans people. I want them to live a life without oppression with the same freedoms I have, but aside from that I care as much about them as do about the guy who lives in the apartment down the street, whom I’ve never met. And to that end, I think there are things that are reasonable to request from others in society, and I think there are things that are not. And changing the language for them I don’t find reasonable, just like I would ask anyone to change the language for me, and shame them if they didn’t. In the same vein, if people are so horrified about trans people using the wrong bathroom, just stop gendering them. To me, the only reason why we gender them anyway is because men take their bits out in front of everyone, so if we remove that part, they are virtually identical.
Your definition of “force” sounds like “anytime I am uncomfortable”. Someone made a choice to invent slang, someone else picked it up. Not using youth vernacular as a youth often results in mockery. Someone brought in a loan word, others chose to use it. In business or political spheres, failing to adopt the style of the times often led to mockery, ostracization, or diminished station. None of that is force. It’s all just choices.
You think suffering consequences for misgendering someone is aggressive but you don’t think suffering consequences for being a “square” is aggressive. When we raise young people in the sales professions we tell them to get interested enough in sports to be able to talk about it to build rapport. Same for TV. There was a time when if you didn’t watch TV you were cut out of conversation regularly.
Aggression is when bigots beat transpeople to death. Not when trans people ask to be respected through use of language. Aggression is when neo-nazis block access to drag storytime, not when someone asks you to use the pronouns they have chosen for themselves.
If you haven’t read anything about how gender is a system of control I would recommend starting with any of bell hooks’ work on patriarchy. Here’s a short PDF summarizing some of the legacy of colonialism and its impact on gender-nonconforming people. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/cfi-subm/2308/subm-colonialism-sexual-orientation-cso-ilga-world-joint-submission-input-2.pdf
And finally, you don’t care that much about trans people. That’s the insight. You need to start seeing everything else you’re saying through that lens. You’re not rationally correct on each of your points, you’re justifying your emotional position. The reason we are having this argument is because I do care about trans people and we can argue about the use of language, which makes you uncomfortable, to advance the relationship. I can get you curious about the topic, I can share things you wouldn’t have heard before. The debate is the point. It’s a social evolution, and one of the ways we are doing it is through language. There are other ways, like fashion, literature, drama, academia, sexual relations, legislation, court cases, public spectacle, conflict, solidarity, etc. But it’s all evolving and there are people actively pushing that evolution in a direction that allows themselves to be safer being who they are as opposed to afraid for their lives on a daily basis.
I know a few trans or nonbinary folks. They either go by he, she, or they. I have yet to meet someone who doesn’t. Then again I live in a weird progressive rural community.
But if someone asks me to refer to them a particular way, sure what not? It means more to them than it means to me.
But if someone asks me to refer to them a particular way, sure what not? It means more to them than it means to me.
And it costs you nothing. :)
Until you’re that rural person dropped into a convention center with people wearing name tags with their preferred pronoun and almost no understanding of how to actually use those pronouns appropriately.
For the most part, it’s amazing how seldom pronouns actually get used in referring to any specific person. Even if Bob uses he/she/they relatively often, the he/she/they being referred to is a specific person and the number of times Bob uses the word ‘she’ when referring to Sally is related entirely to how often Bob talks about Sally, specifically with other people. That might literally be never/once a year/once in his lifetime/etc.
If the vast majority of the time Bob talks about other people, they’ve not mentioned any preference, it’s understandable if he struggles when the need comes up, mid conversation, to substitute a ‘they/zhe/xer’ where he has only every used he/she (they still sounds plural to most people), and to remember off the top of your head a pronoun you’ve only seen on a name tag one time, roughly amounts to remembering everyone’s name and their hometown. Of course the impact is lessened by the fact that you will rarely have to refer to some specific person in third person when you don’t even remember their name, and in that case ‘they’ is kind of a fallback anyway.
Perhaps an undesirable outcome is that if the pronoun is a hurdle to overcome, it’s easier for Bob just not to bring Sally up at all, a possibly unfortunate result because it might have been an interesting conversation that is now simply avoided.
Okay, first of all, if you counted how many pronouns you use, per day, it would likely surprise you. Second, it once again, costs you nothing to use someone’s pronouns after they’ve been identified to you. If you’re arguing “it’s not fair to be yelled at for something you aren’t aware of” then that’s completely reasonable.
If your argument is “I don’t want to be bothered learning 3 new words in a language I’ve spoken my entire life,” then I have no sympathy for you, and you’re at best just someone who’s disrespectful to those they (WOW I used they as a singular, THAT was hard, cost me $400 to write that just now) don’t feel deserve respect. It’s that simple.
If someone introduces themselves as Jennifer, and you immediately start calling them Jen/Jenny/Etc, and they ask tell you it’s Jennifer, do you double down because, well, Jen is just easier, Jen is just easier, I’ll just stop bringing up Jen.
Perhaps an undesirable outcome is that if the pronoun is a hurdle to overcome, it’s easier for Bob just not to bring Sally up at all, a possibly unfortunate result because it might have been an interesting conversation that is now simply avoided.
And then you sit there, while explaining this to me, and act like what you’re describing isn’t blatant discrimination. The exact same “LoGiC” that has been used to discriminate against “difficult women,” y’know, the ones that were sexually harassed in the workplace for decades.
How did the News react to women standing up against harassment and discrimination in the workplace? Oh, that’s right, they said things like, “Well, now men aren’t going to promote women into managerial positions because they’ll be afraid of being sued! Now men can’t even have conversations with their coworkers without fear of reprimand! Won’t anyone think of how the poor men feel?!”
Notice a pattern? It’s always the oppressed asking too much, because they don’t understand the undo burden of checks notes for this discussion not harassing women and, wow, big ask here, using the names and preferred pronouns of your coworkers.
You’re right, I didn’t think how hard that must be on the average person, completely unreasonable ask on the part of the LGBTQ+ community, next they’ll want equal rights under the law! Disgusting. 🙄
Just a guess here, but are you that desperate to get offended at something that you have to double down on everything you find? Where in my comment did you find an opening for someone politely correcting a preferred name, to turn it into a snarky taking over the person.
I fully understand that it isn’t hard to use gender neutral or specific pronouns, and that they comfortably fits within many sentences, but you seem to be insisting that that there are no circumstances where someone might struggle… Can you really think of no insurance where they sounds at least ambiguous, like when it’s unclear if you are talking about a specific person or a group of people, and then stumbling trying to correct, then wonder if you should correct, maybe that’s offensive… Just because you use a simple example doesn’t justify the snark surrounding how others don’t have to pay to do it.
Just because people in the past (and present) have overreached or minimized groups doesn’t mean no one can have a valid thought in that direction. You may want to dismiss or ignore those that take advantage of the gender topic purely for the attention, or lie about sexual abuse for revenge or money, but that doesn’t make it disappear. Understanding that the bad apples don’t invalidate the group is fair, but you’re using the vocal objections as false flags just as much as the media used the false arguments as reasons to minimize the groups themselves.
Just a guess here, but are you that desperate to get offended at something that you have to double down on everything you find?
No, I’m more disappointed that those on Lemmy, a supposed left-leaning forum, are ok with trying to justify not using preferred pronouns.
And I’m offended because your entire comment reeked of “if you defend your gender pronouns, some hick who can’t be bothered to read the name tag in front if them and gets so easily offended for being politely corrected a few times during a conversation, we deserve the right to discriminate against you.” That’s literally your last paragraph, so maybe go read what you actually wrote and are defending before getting upset about someone calling you out on it, whether or not you’re ready to recognize it internally.
Where in my comment did you find an opening for someone politely correcting a preferred name, to turn it into a snarky taking over the person.
I’ve never once said people can’t make mistakes, but this complete “well it’s difficult and ignorance is always an excuse” that all of you seem to be conveying is ridiculous. And it’s absolutely a taking over of a person: pronouns are part of how a person identifies, akin to their name. Your example used a convention full of people wearing name tags that had their names and their pronouns on them. So, you can’t read? You can’t listen and hope you hear someone use the pronoun in a sentence? You can’t go, “Hm, lemme do a quick Google and see how people use zhe/zher in a sentence.”
Again, that would be like saying, “I can’t pronounce Rajesh, even though you’ve politely corrected me several times, but this time you got upset so now I’m either calling you Steve or potentially just never bringing you up again.” That was your entire comment, “This is too difficult for some people, so they don’t have to ever learn.”
Nor have I ever said that trans folks are justified in overreactions to people making genuine mistakes, but the attitude in this thread seems to be “it’s ok to not take them seriously or dismiss them,” which isn’t ok.
We can argue the minutiae of very specific situations where it is or isn’t justified, but overall, I don’t see a situation where there should be confusion around “they.” If you’re having a conversation with or about someone, you likely understand the context around the conversation and should, without much difficulty, be able to follow and understand who “they” is referring to in regards to being a singular or plural pronoun. Especially if you’re at a convention, assuming business/professional since you mentioned name tags, you should be smart enough to figure it out quick enough.
If you’re reading and can’t understand “they,” you’ve either missed context or the author has failed to adequately define who “they” is in that instance. In 2024, I imagine you can look it up for a book, or maybe ask the person in the conversation to clarify if you’re not sure. It’s not hard, it’s laziness on the part of those who “just can’t get with the times.”
You may want to dismiss or ignore those that take advantage of the gender topic purely for the attention, or lie about sexual abuse for revenge or money, but that doesn’t make it disappear.
Doesn’t make what disappear? Can you show me actual, statistical evidence to back up how many people are lying and just seeking attention? This reeks of conservative victim blaming and dismissal of actual victims.
Does it happen? Sure, but I highly highly doubt it happens in any meaningful amount for your statement here to bear any wait beyond, again, victim blaming.
but you’re using the vocal objections as false flags just as much as the media used the false arguments as reasons to minimize the groups themselves.
I have no idea what you’re trying to convey here beyond something akin to “well, not all men.” I’m not accusing every person of being transphobic that struggles to adapt to new pronouns, but they’re also words, you can learn them quickly, especially in your native language. And being offended if someone continues to correct you is more of a reflection on you, the individual who can’t or won’t adapt, to understand that “this is too complicated” isn’t a valid excuse after a certain point.
And my entire thing, this whole comment chain, has been about how using proper pronouns is showing respect for someone, and y’all are making any excuse you can possibly think of to try and find situations where disrespect is justified due to your own failings or inability to grow.
Trans people have enough to deal with, is asking other people to use breath expelled from their lungs to show them respect, even with grace periods for adapting, really asking for the fucking moon here? Like, seriously, all of the controversy around trans people, and pronouns is the hill y’all want to die on? Seriously?
And as I pointed out in my original comment, you’re allowed to not use new pronouns or respect them or whatever, but you’re not allowed to be upset when society treats you in kind.
So I’m not going to address this whole list of responses to comments you twisted around in order to be offended. I’m not dying on a hill of refusing to treat trans people with respect, my entire comment was aimed at cautioning against getting bent out of shape when people struggle a little bit with a new (to them) bit of culture and language.
Yes, we all understand that it’s not ‘hard’, but no matter how much you want everyone to see it your way, treat it with as much importance as you do, to some it’s going to take a bit and if you take that as an attack and attack back, you’re doing more harm than good.
My takeaway from the entire conversation is that if someone refuses to make a good faith effort at using a preferred pronoun, they’re a dick. If someone understands the importance and makes a moderate good faith effort but struggles getting it right and you judge or mock them for it, you’re the dick. And that second audience is bigger than you give credit for.
Just use 他
He = 他 She = 他
Chinese Language Supremacy!
(Disclaimer: I have Chinese Ancestry)
I know, right? The pronoun for third-person female did not exist historically. When western culture hit China 100 years ago, they swap out the part where it means ‘human’ to make a new word.
Now when someone wants to refer to one in a gender-neutral way, they naturally write out the phonetic ‘ta’, as if the gender-neutral word is for male only.🤦
Same goes for second-person pronoun in Taiwan.
Stop these bullshits! The Chinese language does not need to address the gender! Figure that out in context! If you are writing and don’t want to confuse your reader, just use the name!
Yeah I support trans rights. If you are consistent I’ll use your preferred pronouns. I don’t care what bathroom people use. Health care is between you and your doctor. I only care about what genitals you have if we are going to be doing things with each others genitals.
That said so many trans people are complete assholes about it. I’m on your side but fuck so many of you are annoying jerks.
I remember when gays started coming out of the closet and they handled it better. Polite but firm about being treated fairly. The trans community is making more foes then friends the way they are acting.
This might be specific to your region? Most trans people I know are grateful if you even make an effort. Even if you get it wrong sometimes.
It’s probably mostly a very vocal online minority. The few trans people I’ve come across irl (there aren’t many trans people) have typically been regular people.
Could be. Grateful and understanding does describe my two trans friends. However they we friends before they transitioned. So the relationship was established and they knew I cared about them.
I knew one for ten years before they transitioned. So yeah I try not to dead name them but it takes time to adjust. For me it took about 2 years before I didn’t think of their old name and have to adjust it before speaking.
I was talking about them with a mutual friend at a party. Someone I don’t know yells at me from across the room “we don’t use that name here.” I’m better friends with them then you and you just made the entire party aware of their status.
Maybe it’s just the people who make it a big deal publicly and like to challenge people. They tend to be the most noticeable in the community.
Yeah, I’m trans and there’s a push and pull there. I spent a long time trying to get people to understand and speak up for me so I don’t have to be the one to correct when I’ve been misgendered, but I remember being young and confrontational once and I got into fights over it and probably made trans people look like psychos at the time. And I was definitely worse to be around when I was doing more activism and community support.
I’ve long since accepted that gentle nudges and honest connections are the key to mass acceptance, but that at times we will have to make showy displays of our struggle for equal rights. And that doesn’t mean I don’t get to be angry or frustrated when I’m being hurt, it just means I need to accept that people trying are trying and that my role as someone who’s increasingly an elder in my community is partly to encourage people to know when to yell and when to gently correct
I think this is a much more useful strategy for convincing people to change. If someone like I did, mentions they aren’t happy about, for instance, pronouns, then people start lashing out. I might have had a conversation on this, but honestly the tone in some of the responses isn’t likely to convince me to listen. Even when I start out saying I’m going to end up on the losing side of this.
