I strongly encourage instance admins to defederate from Facebook/Threads/Meta.
They aren’t some new, bright-eyed group with no track record. They’re a borderline Machiavellian megacorporation with a long and continuing history of extremely hostile actions:
- Helping enhance genocides in countries
- Openly and willingly taking part in political manipulation (see Cambridge Analytica)
- Actively have campaigned against net neutrality and attempted to make “facebook” most of the internet for members of countries with weaker internet infra - directly contributing to their amplification of genocide (see the genocide link for info)
- Using their users as non-consenting subjects to psychological experiments.
- Absolutely ludicrous invasions of privacy - even if they aren’t able to do this directly to the Fediverse, it illustrates their attitude.
- Even now, they’re on-record of attempting to get instance admins to do backdoor discussions and sign NDAs.
Yes, I know one of the Mastodon folks have said they’re not worried. Frankly, I think they’re being laughably naive >.<. Facebook/Meta - and Instagram’s CEO - might say pretty words - but words are cheap and from a known-hostile entity like Meta/Facebook they are almost certainly just a manipulation strategy.
In my view, they should be discarded as entirely irrelevant, or viewed as deliberate lies, given their continued atrocious behaviour and open manipulation of vast swathes of the population.
Facebook have large amounts of experience on how to attack and astroturf social media communities - hell I would be very unsurprised if they are already doing it, but it’s difficult to say without solid evidence ^.^
Why should we believe anything they say, ever? Why should we believe they aren’t just trying to destroy a competitor before it gets going properly, or worse, turn it into yet another arm of their sprawling network of services, via Embrace, Extend, Extinguish - or perhaps Embrace, Extend, Consume would be a better term in this case?
When will we ever learn that openly-manipulative, openly-assimilationist corporations need to be shoved out before they can gain any foothold and subsume our network and relegate it to the annals of history?
I’ve seen plenty of arguments claiming that it’s “anti-open-source” to defederate, or that it means we aren’t “resilient”, which is wrong ^.^:
- Open source isn’t about blindly trusting every organisation that participates in a network, especially not one which is known-hostile. Threads can start their own ActivityPub network if they really want or implement the protocol for themselves. It doesn’t mean we lose the right to kick them out of most - or all - of our instances ^.^.
- Defederation is part of how the fediverse is resilient. It is the immune system of the network against hostile actors (it can be used in other ways, too, of course). Facebook, I think, is a textbook example of a hostile actor, and has such an unimaginably bad record that anything they say should be treated as a form of manipulation.
Edit 1 - Some More Arguments
In this thread, I’ve seen some more arguments about Meta/FB federation:
- Defederation doesn’t stop them from receiving our public content:
- This is true, but very incomplete. The content you post is public, but what Meta/Facebook is really after is having their users interact with content. Defederation prevents this.
- Federation will attract more users:
- Only if Threads makes it trivial to move/make accounts on other instances, and makes the fact it’s a federation clear to the users, and doesn’t end up hosting most communities by sheer mass or outright manipulation.
- Given that Threads as a platform is not open source - you can’t host your own “Threads Server” instance - and presumably their app only works with the Threads Server that they run - this is very unlikely. Unless they also make Threads a Mastodon/Calckey/KBin/etc. client.
- Therefore, their app is probably intending to make itself their user’s primary interaction method for the Fediverse, while also making sure that any attempt to migrate off is met with unfamiliar interfaces because no-one else can host a server that can interface with it.
- Ergo, they want to strongly incentivize people to stay within their walled garden version of the Fediverse by ensuring the rest remains unfamiliar - breaking the momentum of the current movement towards it. ^.^
- We just need to create “better” front ends:
- This is a good long-term strategy, because of the cycle of enshittification.
- Facebook/Meta has far more resources than us to improve the “slickness” of their clients at this time. Until the fediverse grows more, and while they aren’t yet under immediate pressure to make their app profitable via enshittification and advertising, we won’t manage >.<
- This also assumes that Facebook/Meta won’t engage in efforts to make this harder e.g. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish/Consume, or social manipulation attempts.
- Therefore we should defederate and still keep working on making improvements. This strategy of “better clients” is only viable in combination with defederation.
PART 2 (post got too long!)
The craziest thing to me is that people seem to be lining up to make excuses for Meta. We learned the first week of this migration that defederating can get messy, we saw it right away with Beehaw.
Had Beehaw defederated from the larger instances sooner, then there would have been no outrage in the community over it. But while Lemmy was seeing a lot of growth, a lot of the big communities were being made on beehaw. All of the sudden, people were unable to access these communities properly and they were PISSED.
Guys, look around! Threads has what, 10 million users already? We have like, a hundred thousand, maybe a few hundred thousand at best? They will no doubt have huge communities formed by the time they decide they want to start federating. The ratio of Lemmy/Kbin users to threads users will be 100:1.
If we federate with Meta we basically have no choice but to use the communities they host. People only want to use 1 community (the issue of duplicate communities is brought up daily), so they will flock to the largest one. When Meta decides they don’t want to play nice with us anymore (and they will, it is never profitable to let people access all your content completely free, and shareholders will come knocking), defederation is going to decimate whats left here. Personally I think the place would implode, and many would migrate to where the content is.
Defed every corporation. McDonald’s starts an instance? Fuck off and fix your ice cream machine. Gabe Newell starts a Steam instance? No Gabe, go make half life 3. Make all these suits federate each other and see if anyone wants to talk on their shit.
Almost once a week for the last 5 years there is a neoliberal that screams about defederating from leftist instances that have absolutely zero power and influence in the world just for disagreeing with them politically. Doesn’t matter whether you’re on lemmy or mastodon or other services, this happens like clockwork.
Those exact same people are currently defending against defederating from an evil megacorporation with literal cia employees on staff that does real quantifiable evil shit in the world, and they claim to be moral.
Billionaire and neolib bootlickers are one of the most disgusting things on the internet. Everything for the imperialist/corporatist agenda even when it goes against their own wellbeing.
“Defederate from the communists because sometimes they say things we don’t like!”
“No, don’t defederate from the people literally killing children by intentionally giving them eating disorders with unethical research! They’re fine!”
“But gommunism killed TRILLIONS of people!”
We’ll feel the results of neolib indoctrination (and intentional dumbing of the masses) for decades, and it’s disgusting.
is there a server somewhere that is dedicated to not defederating? i know there are a lot of reddit mod refugees here but im not here because i loved the mods on reddit. i dont want them censoring things for me i can handle it on my own. i would really like to be on a server that is using this technology but will not defederate as i know the server i use (lemmy.world) is already doing that. im not trying to get into bad shit i just dont really want to be part of that drama. it’s basically like when mods from certain subs would ban users for having participated in another sub they didn’t like. anyway, i am asking in earnest if anyone knows of a lemmy server that is normal but also not defederating because of dumb posts like this one.
Define “normal”. The fascist servers haven’t defederated, but everyone else defederates from them.
Nutjobs should just be ignored, as much as I dislike leftists Meta is an actual massive threat to Fedi.
They’re not nutjobs, they just know which side their bread is buttered.
They oppose leftists and support corporations like Meta for the same reason. The corporate system that rules the world is literally the creation of the neoliberals. These two positions are actually in harmony for them, the only lie they consistently tell is that they do everything for moral reasons rather than self interest because they have materially benefit from that system or aspire to.
Okay, but why does your comment sound so defeatist?
Fight goddammit, this is the time when the most actual leftists will see this shit. This is an inflection point, this could be the moment that matters… Or just another missed chance
I am fighting. The point in cases like this one is to expose the neoliberals for not really being leftists whatsoever, they’re centre right anywhere in the world other than america. The only way we move people away from them and towards real anti-imperialist politics and leftism is by exposing and critiquing them from their left.
Removed by mod
Not exactly constructive is it? I don’t really care about being insulted by tories but I’ll report it when people don’t actually say anything I can respond to.
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While lemmy.world is not my main instance, so I have no say in whether you defederate or not, I would like to bring this arugment into the discussion, because it’s applicable for all instances, and make de-federation an absolute must for every instance.
Allowing Meta in goes directly against the idea of Fediverse, and we should fight it as much as possible.
This is a literal quote from the main header on https://www.fediverse.to/
The fediverse is a collection of community-owned, ad-free, decentralised, and privacy-centric social networks.
Each fediverse instance is managed by a human admin. You can find fediverse instances dedicated to art, music, technology, culture, or politics.
Join the growing community and experience the web as it was meant to be.
I’ve seen a lot of comments mentioning that defederating with Meta goes against the principles and main ideas of the Fediverse, that it should be inclusive and allow people to connect. But, judging by this main selling point of the Fediverse, it sounds to me like Meta shouldn’t be in the Fediverse do begin with.
We will never be able to compete with them for as long as they remain federated with us. We will simply have no unique value any longer. All of our development–open source. All of our content–available to the federation. He will have rightful possession of it all, everything we are.
However, he does not have to share his development with us. He does not have to share his hardware resources with us. He does not have to limit himself to only the capabilities that we want to be added.
He can, if absolutely necessary, buy us. One big Instance at a time.
Our only path forward with any independence is to defederate immediately and ruthlessly. This way, we keep our content. We keep that unique contribution, that we can use as a competitor to eventually demonstrate our value to the rest of the world. That’s the only way possible for us to have any chance of eventually toppling him, instead. We must retain our unique value. We must protect our content. If he wants it, make him scrape it and repost it with bots or something.
Another option is to make migration of everything from one instance easy and let them buy whichever instances they want but let the users go somewhere else. Turn their weaponized capitalism into free money for instance admins until they wisen up and stop throwing money at it.
Or set up the terms and services to give the instances responsibilities that must be honoured even after they get purchased by another entity such that buying them becomes unattractive. Like mandate a certain portion of the topmost parent company’s profits (along with clauses to prevent Hollywood accounting from dodging that, maybe say revenue instead of profit and all related companies instead of just the topmost) must be invested back into the fediverse and that changing the TOS to remove that requires a certain number of users to agree. Set it up so that it is designed to only work if the whole point of the entity is to host a community rather than extract profit from hosted communities.
Even if we defederate with them they can still grab all the content here. Defederation just stops the flow of content from their instance to ours. Defederation just hides the comments from Threads’ users on our discussions.
I think the real test is when they start demanding that other instances start moderating their content to comply with Facebook’s terms of service and if not then defederate and make them unable to communicate with the by-far biggest instance on the fediverse with almost all the users.
no, defederation does not “just” do those things
defederation refuses to give them an in to slowly make changes to the platform that will eventually give way to a centralized power dynamic over the whole fediverse
see also: the chrome/chromium monopoly and its effect on the modern web
There are under the hood data that is not displayed on the site which they can scrap. FB would be broke if they only rely on the FB posts alone without all the tracking everywhere. Even your movement on the screen or where you pause on the page are tracked.
So no they dont get all the data unless we federate them.
They can do that on Facebook because it’s their code and their platform. They can probably do that on their app and and instance too to some extent but I don’t think they can grab much more than the content of your messages and your likes if you’re on a different instance. Lemmy is open source; if there was a way to get that data we’d know about it.
While I don’t support preemptive defederation and was willing to give them a chance, it should be clear by now that Facebook is uninterested in being good actors, and allowing a nearly unmoderated large instance with hate groups and also collects this much info from their users is dangerous regardless of who runs it.
I support defed due to malicious behavior, although I still think Threads is going to fail regardless of what any of us does.
Facebook sucks, there’s nothing but dumb boomers on there now. And the amount of data they harvest from their users is insane. If they think you’re a bot, they’ll demand to see your government issued ID or your SSN to “verify” you and totally not to get deeper insight into who you are and how to sell shit to you.
Nope. Im out. Im not waiting for admins to do the right thing. I did that with reddit and we all see where that went.
I think I fall on the side of preemptive defederation, not just because of data harvesting etc but also because the incoming communities will be huge and dwarf anything already here - look at what has happened here already as communities try to merge and establish. Everything dominant will become meta along with whatever mods and rules etc they already have in place. Scary.
yes! and i’ve wondered for awhile how people would still be able to run servers once threads swamped the fediverse.
Agreed. More instances should defederate from anything related to Meta. Im here because a corporate entity utterly destroyed something I liked. I don’t want that again.
There must never be a single dominant instance. If one instance becomes too large, they end up having too much influential power. And with all that power, big corporations or power tripping admins will use that power to coerce other instances to do certain things. “Don’t want to follow our unilaterally-imposed rule? We’re gonna cut off your entire instance and your users will lose access to our communities.”
If Meta doesn’t get defederated, they will become the dominant instance. They already have the most amount of users since I’m assuming you can use your Facebook/Instagram account, they’ll have the most amount of user activity, and of course the most amount of power.
That’s how majority-vik party becomes the government on display.
Denying big powerful entities from controlling you is both anarchist and communist, and is based.
I’m sure if it comes to being ruled by Meta, many previously .lm users would get it.
From the side of Fediverse, there’s like no argument to accept Facebook but WE NEED TO GROW. And no, the influx of some millions of users won’t bring life or quality to Lemmy, it would replace it for what culture of communicating is in the Insta. And I don’t feel like many people there would vote to have this.
Once you accept it, your community is overtaken (and you need to serve another thousands of users as an admin). I don’t feel anyone would be open to include them.
Never underestimate what corporate greed can and willing to do.
You have to give them credit, they kept their XMPP servers until the last. But you’re right that Google killed a lot of things.
That is Google’s graveyard
Don’t even know why and how there are arguments in favor of Meta. They’re bad, everyone knows it. People still use them because they’re basically forced to keep up with acquaintances and family.
Well, I mean, in the United States our culture is built around “business good; much innovation” and anything to stymie corporate efforts is met with groans of “you’ll understand why it must be this way when you’re older.” It’s almost reflex for some to be apologists for corporations.
Heck, I even read some takes around that damned submarine being along the lines of “we shouldn’t regulate the sub industry – that CEO was just trying to innovate!”
I actually agree with that sentiment. Put more billionaires in tin cans and drop them in the ocean where its deepest.
Well, billionaires are wonderful people deep down.
3km deep down, preferably
Well, it’s a goodish sentiment. Where I live the tendency is to be pretty much against all kind of companies and the results show. Country’s economy is a disaster (Portugal). You shouldn’t become all against companies but you shouldn’t be blindly for all companies either. There’s a balance for everything in life and people should learn more about balances.
Heck, I even read some takes around that damned submarine being along the lines of “we shouldn’t regulate the sub industry – that CEO was just trying to innovate!”
Afaik you can’t even regulate it since it’s international waters and the submersible was technically “cargo”
EDIT: TLDR you should have some common sense regarding companies.
Not only did I add
threads.netto my blocked instances list, I also went scorched Earth and outright blocked Facebook’s entire IP range through my firewall. Don’t want them “accidentally” reading any data from my server ;)For reference, their IP range is
157.240.0.0/16:Edit: Actually, I might have more IPs to block:
Frankly, I think this is the only reasonable stance to take with Facebook.
They do a lot of good things. They do a lot of bad things. The entity itself has zero understanding of the difference
Take the good - Facebook has invested in the maturation of a lot of technologies…as the only clear victor in social media, they very literally have more money than they know what to do with, and they threw some of that at FOSS
Leave the bad… Or more accurately, do everything you can - not only to block their data collection and manipulation of you, but also of your friends and family. Ad blockers, local cdn, and Firefox if they’ll go for it
And most importantly, keep them far from the operations of anything you hold dear. The fediverse should make this list - this is something important. It’s social media without an agenda - that’s both rare and pretty damn important for all of us
They can’t stop. There’s a lot of good people at Facebook, but they can’t stop - that’s just what a corporation is. I’ll happily break down why from first principles, but the takeaway is this - every last employee of Facebook could be the most moral, competent group out there and it’d still act like an amoral cancer on society
It’s not a matter of good or evil, they will take every path that promises ROI on a time frame inversely proportional to their size, and they’re freaking huge…
Thanks, this was a very good insight. No matter how good the person, if they are under pressure, they are still going to make the wrong decisions. This is why we should stay away from them as much as possible.
How do you block whole instances?
I run my own Lemmy instance, there is an option on my administration page called “blocked instances.” I’ve added it there.
This should be copied to a post so it’s easier to see for other instance owners.
Aha, have been studying for the CCNA. I understand. I FEEL SO LITERATE.
We have a moral and ethical obligation as humans to exclude any participation from Facebook or Meta. Facebook knew their algorithm increased suicide rates among it’s users, but actively suppressed this information because they also knew their algorithm made them more money. The more depressed and addicted Facebook users became, the more money Facebook made. And when they went before Congress to answer for this, Zuckerberg just did nothing, took no accountability, and nothing changed.
This isn’t about boycotting and trying to do some kind of ethical capitalism, it’s about not letting Hitler submit changes to your git repo regardless of what those changes technically are. They could be the most technically brilliant changes ever made to an open source project, but they would still be Hitler’s changes.
