• SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today
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    2 days ago

    I think most commenters here are missing the point.

    There is a more extreme reaction to transgender people as opposed to gay or lesbian people, because of issues like sports and bathrooms. And that hits at people’s sense of injustice. For example if you have a young daughter, a lot of people will hate the idea of a person with a penis going into the women’s room and being around there little girl. Or if that daughter grows up and joins a sports team, the idea of somebody who is hormonally male and thus naturally more muscular competing against your daughter is unpleasant.

    Put differently, I think a lot of people we now classify as ‘transphobic’ don’t actually have much problem with trans people themselves. Rather, with how the efforts to ensure trans people receive the full treatment of their chosen gender can affect the rest of society.

    For me personally, I don’t know what the answer is. I generally don’t care which bathroom you use as long as you wash your hands. I have no problem with anyone presenting themselves to the world as whatever they wish, if it makes you happier than by all means. At the same time though, I don’t think it’s transphobic to point out that somebody who is largely or entirely biologically male will have a natural competitive advantage in the field of sports.
    So while I certainly don’t want to exclude anybody, I think there is at least a little justification for restricting some women’s sports to those who are genetically female.

    • Fedizen@lemmy.world
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      I think the part people don’t realize is that like a lot of top athletes just have oddities - higher muscle building hormones, circulatory systems that work better under stress, more cellular receptors for triggering muscle building etc. And at the same time sex hormones aren’t the only chemicals that affect these things so there’s also a plethora of performance enhancing drugs cascading out of labs at the same time which is genuinely pumping out hulked up muscle freaks (see Liver King’s 12k steroid shots per month scandal)

      At some point it would just make more sense to just classify sports by weight and build and remove the genital inspection element.

    • CitricBase@lemmy.world
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      I think that one thing you and other centrists are missing is that any kind of regulation isn’t just a regulation on trans women, it’s a regulation on ALL women. It won’t be just trans women that will be put in a position of constantly having their genitals checked.

      Be it for bathrooms, sports, whatever, you’re opening us up to a world where anyone that fancies themselves an authority will feel empowered to sexually assault any women they want. That’s what’s at stake here. This is a women’s issue, not just a trans issue. Hell, even men will end up getting harassed in bathrooms.

      Meanwhile, actual trans people are going to by and large steer clear of segregated contact sports like they’ve always done, feeling the pain of exclusion and marginalization while deserving none of it.

    • 31337@sh.itjust.works
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      I think I’ve heard there are a lot of genetically male, but born female people in sports. I wonder if the same people are against those people playing in sports.

      Idk how many transphobic people just care about specific issues. There’s a lot of “groomer” rhetoric, hate, and general disgust. It’s easy to get people to hate what they don’t understand; and a lot of media is trying their hardest to cultivate hate against trans people to create an out-group, so they can control the in-group.

      • SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today
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        1 day ago

        create an out-group so they can control the in-group

        That’s not just the media. It’s basically everyone in power. Media, politics, government, corporations… Everyone.

        It applies to the Democrats too. Especially in the 2016 election, they managed to successfully make Republicans the out-group. But I believe that was hugely damaging to the country, it created a lot more division when what is really needed is unity to focus on the issues that most people can agree on.

        Because here’s the cold truth- there is a body of policies that probably 80% of Americans would agree on. Things like efficient government, ending government corruption, reducing corporate control over government and elections, reducing income inequality, etc.
        To quote Dylan Ratigan’s famous rant, the United States is being extracted. And I think most people would like to stop that extraction.
        But no major candidate stands for that. Bernie did, but the DNC iced him out because their wealthy corporate donors didn’t want Bernie.

        And that in my opinion is why Trump won. Harris certainly didn’t push any major message of radical reform, just a bunch of the usual ‘help the middle class’ talk. Trump may be terrifying, but he does push a message of radical reform and changing the system.
        To write that off and say half the country is racist or misogynist is to avoid learning from this situation.

    • BigMacHole@lemm.ee
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      1 day ago

      LoL at thinking Republicans don’t want people with Penises in their Daughter’s Restroom! Conservatives are LITERALLY making it ILLEGAL for people with Penises and Beards to use anything BUT their Daughter’s Restroom!

    • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world
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      1 day ago

      I don’t think anyone really cares about sports or bathrooms when it comes down to it It’s all about the patriarchy. Not a single person I’ve met has mentioned a woman who became a man going into a men’s restroom as a problem. Or them entering mens sports outside of the dimly vieled “oh well they could get hurt and a man needs to protect them from making their own decisions”

      It all comes back to people thinking men have to take care of women because they can’t take care of themselves without assistance.

      It is a reflection of how weak the people who think such are. And projecting and trying to control others lives because they don’t believe they can take care of themselves.

      If you believe in people having freedom, stop trying to fucking chain them to your ideals. (Not aimed at you specifically)

  • josefo@leminal.space
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    1 day ago

    Conservatives are afraid of change, because they control current status quo. They can’t let people escape from that control, so every nail that is a little outside it’s hole gets hammered.

    In short, they rather prefer trans (and broadly queers) to hide or die, unless they can control them. Everyone different from what they can control is a big danger. Imagine if everyone could be like they feel like? Conservatives see this as chaos, they are the guardians of peace and good values, so anything not already controlled by them is the opposite, chaos, destruction, fire.

    That’s why they rarely present anything new, their policies and general opinion tend to fight the natural evolution of civilization. USA, as obviously all of the American Continent, was built by immigrants (and slaves). Now they fight immigrants, undocumented ones mostly, because they can’t control them. And we know what happened when ‘the libs’ back then tried to end slavery, you know, other people that they CONTROLLED.

    Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

  • paddirn@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    They’re an easy minority to scapegoat. In the US they make up between 0.5% and 1.6% of the population. A sizable portion of straight people associate being transgender as something sick and weird and a sexual deviancy, so it’s easy to target them and to try to associate them with actual objectively bad things (ie pedophilia). They’re just people trying to find their place in the world and live their lives, same as most of us.

    • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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      A sizable portion of straight people associate being transgender as something sick and weird and a sexual deviancy, so it’s easy to target them and to try to associate them with actual objectively bad things (ie pedophilia).

      I find that disgusting and totally incorrect, but actually I would be fine if that’s what they thought and that’s where they stopped.

      But they want to pass laws telling other people how they have to behave, and how they have to do things.

      The most unamerican and unpatriotic, anti-freedom thing that I can possibly think of, is people passing laws to define something as intimate and personal as gender identity and family planning. Like can’t they just fuck off and let people be how they want?

      It’s extremely weird. And these fucking bigots think because they won the election they’re not weird anymore, but most of the country did not vote. These people are still weird as fuck. If everyone voted they would get crushed and laughed out of town.

  • inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    Because queerness (trans, gender non conforming, gender fluid, agender, bigender and related) threatens hierarchy.

    In western society regardless of how ‘progressive’ some parts of it have gotten, for the majority there’s still a strict hierarchy. Man most important, then woman, then children first boys then girls. Trans people completely disrupt this hierarchy by being able to change what they are and those who cling to hierarchy freak the fuck out over it.

    Then there’s the sexual panic, a straight man who’s insecure is gonna freak out if the woman they think is cute actually has a penis.

    • GiveOver@feddit.uk
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      If that were true, then it would be trans men getting the most attention because they’re the ones cheating their way up this hierarchy. In my experience, 99% of the hate is directed at trans women.

      • inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        If the transphobes thought trans men were men then your comment would be accurate. But they just see them as confused women and easy to just ignore them like they ignore cis women.

        (You are right about trans women bearing the brunt of the hate, and I think so much of that is sexual panic from cishet men about finding a penis owner attractive)

    • BoxOfFeet@lemmy.world
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      Meh, I don’t know if it’s strictly a hierarchy thing. I think it’s probably more “just” a heteronormative thing. Closed-minded people who don’t like things or people that are different. Fear of difference. I’m just speculating, here.

      I can also see the sexual panic aspect.

      • GrammarPolice@lemmy.world
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        That’s cuz it isn’t hierarchy, it’s tradition. People have a hard time warming up to things that are very different from the norm.

    • Steak@lemmy.ca
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      2 days ago

      I don’t agree. For ages in any life or death situation it is woman and children first. Men are the strongest of the bunch, any respectable man is putting his children and wife onto a lifeboat before themselves. You’d have a hard time finding a father/husband who wouldn’t.

      • CitricBase@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        Your little scenario explicitly presumes that the man would be the one in charge, making this decision.

        • Steak@lemmy.ca
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          Who else would be in charge of a man making the decision to let others go ahead of himself? It is a self made decision, and a selfless one. So of course he is the one making the decision. A woman could just as easily make this decision, if she did would you still be saying “well of course she did, she’s the one on charge!”. I hope not. You just don’t like the fact that when shit hits the fan, oftentimes men are the ones who step up and help others and even sacrifice themselves. Have whatever qualms you will with men, but at least give them credit where they deserve it.

  • OwenEverbinde@lemmy.myserv.one
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    Materialist answer (inspired by a video called Why The Political Compass is Wrong: Establishing An Accurate Model of Political Ideology, by breadtuber Halim Alrah… and also Jane Elliott’s famous experiment)

    Business owner makes money by paying workers to produce widgets at $6 / unit. Owner sells these widgets at $10 / unit, making a $4 profit each sale.

    Before long, the workers catch on to the reality of the situation: the owner could be making a lot less and still be able to provide “leadership” (or whatever it is he provides). They decide not to work for less than… $8 per unit. With this price, the owner will still be wealthy (the business makes hundreds of widgets, after all). But now, so will the workers.

    So the workers save up money and use it to go on strike.

    However: business owner comes up with a better solution to the problem: he divides the workers into brown-eyed workers and blue-eyed workers. He then uses his money to discriminate against the brown-eyed workers. His cronies in government make it legal to deny brown-eyed workers jobs and housing. His cronies in the media write hysterical anecdotal stories about various brown-eyed rapists, thieves, and murderers.

    Terrified mobs – stoked into a frenzy by the business owner’s well-funded propaganda – tear down brown-eyed people’s homes and food supplies, leaving them destitute before the strike is done.

    The brown-eyed workers now must choose between returning to work for the business owner at $5 / unit… or starving to death.

    The blue-eyed workers, meanwhile, have just been tricked into betraying their own team. Some were not tricked, but simply unprepared. These unprepared workers stood by in either shock, uncertainty, or laziness, unable to comprehend how their fellow blue-eyed workers could have become so foolishly self-defeating and cruel.

    But now the business owner can put up the illusion of no longer needing the blue-eyed workers. He can run his factory on a skeleton crew of desperate, brown-eyed workers, and say to the blue, “uh oh! Looks like the brown-eyed workers just stole your jobs!”

    Much like the brown-eyed workers, the blue-eyed workers have a restricted set of choices: A) admit they were suckers --fooled into attacking their own team – and try to apologize and rebuild their union, B) double down and blame brown-eyed people for undercutting them… but reluctantly return to work, because the strike is broken, or C) just like the brown-eyed workers, they can choose to starve to death.

    (A) will be the most difficult. As Mark Twain said: “it’s easier to fool people than convince them they have been fooled.”

    The business owner wins, and now society has an eye-color-discrimination problem. Eye color was an arbitrary characteristic. Yet now it decides where someone lives, who they spend time with, and what kinds of opportunities they have access to.

    The business owner can rinse and repeat for: skin tone, religion, country of origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc. As the saying goes,

    “Divide and conquer.”

    You asked why trans people are currently the subject of fear and hysteria? No reason. Not any new reason at least. Trans people are different. Any and every difference between workers is an opportunity for those fatcats rich enough to own “The Daily Mail” and the “The New York Post” to separate us into camps and drain us dry, one camp at a time.

    • elucubra@sopuli.xyz
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      2 days ago

      I find this disingenuous, infantilizing. Racial discrimination and warring has been happening since the beginning of (recorded) time. It stems, among many, many other things (this thing is incredibly complex), from the fear of the other’s “unknowns”, a somewhat justified fear of others, given humanity’s penchant for conquering the neighbors. Another factor is the use of each own’s feeling of superiority over the other’s, to cover for one’s underlying fear of inferiority in some way. Take the example (one of many, not singling out here) of the Jews assertion that they are god’s chosen people, thus everyone else being inferior.

      While divide and conquer has been used since the dawn of time, and adapted by the capitalists, the sad and simple fact is that people fear that which doesn’t conform to their comfortable life scheme, that people want certainty, and having a “different” is unsettling for many, and demonization is an easy way to prop one’s belief structure. People who exchange critical thinking for a “safe” belief structure, find it threatening to have others challenge that, so they fight back, to try to have that attack defeated. This can be exploited by others, to rally against that perceived common enemy. Wave a flag, and all who have a common belief of that flag representing their values will rally.

      People don’t want to think, and/or challenge their beliefs. It’s a comfort thing.

      • Bacano@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        I like your answer too. While I strongly believe the trans talking point is being amplified almost exclusively to fuel culture wars between the working class, your point on out-group mentality is a DNA encoded reality, from what I remember reading.

        I think the two compromise the bulk of the answer along with the culture war fuel dumped by foreign entities interested in destabilizing the US.

        The only remedy is education. Something that is sadly on the decline.

  • Lauchs@lemmy.world
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    I don’t encounter a lot of ads but I was just listening to the Economist talk about this one which the trump campaign played over and over again and it struck me as a small window of an answer to your question.

    The ad strikes me as cruel but the thrust (and I imagine there’s a blend of fact and fiction) is that Harris used tax money to pay for a woman’s sex change after being convicted of first degree murder and serving life in prison. They also have Harris saying she was using her power to “push forward the movement and the agenda.”

    Even for supporters of trans rights, I imagine not everyone loves having to defend using tax money to pay for expensive gender surgery, especially on criminals.

    So I could see people, who might otherwise be supportive of trans folks in their own lives, being “against trans people” on an issue framed like this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3BXYjoAzq0&ab_channel=TheJimHeathChannel

  • auzy@lemmy.world
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    We have a lot of LGBTI people in our climbing group

    I have never had an issue with any of them

    But the people trying to be hyper masculine? Yep…

    I feel like it’s because they never left high school. A lot of them are simply trying the same thing that worked when they are a kid. Everyone else grows up

  • PagingDoctorLove@lemmy.world
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    Their systems of power rely on having an “in” group and an “out” group. Overt racism is less acceptable these days because now there are brown Republicans, but transphobia? Very in.

    They’re just choosing a new group to “other” so that we don’t realize they’re coming for everyone who doesn’t fit into their narrow worldview.

  • klemptor@startrek.website
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    3 days ago

    For a simple example: my mother is Catholic and until Trump came along, a lifelong single-issue Republican voter who always said she would be a Democrat if it weren’t for abortion. She attends church in an extremely progressive, famously LGBTQ-friendly town.

    There’s a transwoman who attends her church (let’s call her Rita). This lady is probably in her mid-50s to mid-60s and has been a fixture at the church for at least 5 years. My mom has been in choir and bible study groups with her for years now. She still just can’t see Rita as a woman. Treats her politely but behind her back refuses to call her “she” and says she’s a “man in a dress”.

    She’s really offended that Rita uses the ladies’ room. I’ve asked her why and she can’t articulate it, she just feels like it’s an invasion of her privacy, because men don’t belong in the ladies’ room. And when I point out that Rita isn’t a man, she just rolls her eyes. I’ve asked her if she’s worried that Rita is in there for predatory purposes and she admits that she doesn’t think Rita intends any harm. I’ve asked her how she’d feel if she were forced to use the men’s room and she says “but that’s different!”

    My mom prides herself in being a moral person, and still can’t manage to get past her bigotry to see Rita as a woman. There are just too many mental blockades against it. But since she thinks she’s so highly moral, she thinks she must be correct in this situation. It excuses her from finding empathy and bettering her attitude toward trans folks.

    My longwinded point is that when people who consider themselves highly moral are bigoted, there’s almost zero chance of getting through to them. And I think a lot of the people who are bigoted against trans folks feel that morality is on their side and being trans is morally deviant, so they think they’re justified in their prejudice.

  • infinite_ass@leminal.space
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    Rural IL here. Full of conservatives.

    Nobody here cares if you are trans. Couldn’t care less.

    Never met a school church shooter either.

  • Kalysta@lemm.ee
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    Conservatives come in two types. The rich ones who want more and more money. And the poor ones who also want more money but are unable to obtain it because the rich hoard money.

    The rich conservatives need to stop the poor conservatives from realizing the rich are why the poor can’t get money. So they make up vulnerable groups to blame for the poor’s problem, and the poor are generally too poorly educated to catch on to this game.

    Different groups have been the scapegoat. Women, blacks, the italians, the irish, asians, gays, and now it’s transgender people.

    The good news is transgender people WILL get full rights in about 20-30 years if you look at historical cycles. The bad news is it will be a fight and many will die before they get treated as human beings by these asshole conservatives.

  • shastaxc@lemm.ee
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    Most conservatives I know think it’s dangerous to entertain trans ideas in children. They say kids don’t know what gender really means because they haven’t experienced puberty yet but the most effective time to use hormone blockers is before puberty. So they feel like it’s the parents who are encouraging use of hormone therapy for their kids because the parents are brainwashed by left media, and essentially committing child abuse.

  • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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    1. People fear new unknown things (as perceived by the individual), especially when it comes to bodies and human form, instinctively.

    2. It doesn’t conform to their strict societal standards as crafted by thousands of years of culture and history. The authorities have always persecuted and cracked down on anything that threatens the patriarchal standard.

    3. Minorities make the easiest targets. Trans people are an extreme minority.

    4. Some people think it has more to do with sexuality and sexual urges, so their perception is that it is perversion.

    • UnculturedSwine@lemmy.world
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      Projection is also a common way for people to deflect blame for societal ills. Religious zealots will ignore and even shield sexual abusers present in their own institutions and divert that animosity to outside groups that make convenient targets. They are ok with the abusers within their walls because they are seeking absolution through religious systems. They are not ok with queer people because they need to scapegoat a group to explain why things don’t seem to be getting better.

  • RBWells@lemmy.world
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    They are just propagandized. In general, it’s so much like racists - they may know trans people and just think they are the exceptions, like them as individuals and still think they hate them as a group. They are intentionally riled up by being forced fed edge cases and disinformation.

    Trans people are just people. They aren’t angels who are never criminals and they aren’t degenerates who are always criminal, they are a diverse group like all of us are. But you can bet your ass that whenever a trans person does something criminal it will be blown up so big in conservative media and used to paint them all as criminals. It’s just the right wing media machine.