Stopping processes is actually a user space action.

Now you backpedal and say

Pretty much all code is making requests to the kernel.

But I don’t know what I’m talking about? Sure. We’ll go with that if it makes you feel good. I only literally taught it at a post-grad level at an R1 institution, but what do I know.

It’s side stepping the kernel. That’s the whole point.

You’re getting it! Kind of at least. The anti-cheat actually modifies the kernel (in an extension kind of way, like drivers do). That’s the point though. Which seems to have repeatedly whooshed over your head. But I can only say it in so many ways and be ignored. Good luck. Hope I don’t run into your code.

Stopping processes is actually a user space action. You can do it without admin rights btw. Even if it popped the admin screen that’s still not a kernel level action.

Absolutely not. Task management is the job of the operating system/kernel. You can request to end a job/task. The kernel will do it on it’s own time. UAP prompts are attempts to elevate permissions so that you can access higher kernel calls.

https://linux-kernel-labs.github.io/refs/heads/master/lectures/syscalls.html#linux-system-calls-implementation

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/111625/how-does-linux-kill-a-process

You can make requests the to the kernel. If you have permission/ownership to the process the kernel will work through the sigterm/sigkill to meet your request. It is not a user space action at all to kill a process, you make requests to the kernel to do it. Hell in linux it’s even more obvious as you can instruct the kernel on HOW you would like to kill the task and even then it may not follow your direction. https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/kill.1.html with kill being a kernel tool. If you spawned the process, then you have permission/ownership to the process. But my point in the previous post was that anti-cheats can reach into the system, reading dlls and such that are absolutely NOT user space to begin with, require elevation beyond user space to install.

Yeah that it’s considered malware. I did Google it and there’s nothing saying that.

Seriously? You can’t find anything? You sure about that? Cause I can literally pull up thousands of articles and forum threads by literally typing “is vanguard anti-cheat malware?” or “is easy anti-cheat malware?”

https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/288793-easy-anti-cheat-launcher-detection/

Heuristics detect these things for what they are. Anti-virus software have to whitelist them because people choose to play the games anyway.

https://www.techguy.org/threads/is-valorant-vanguard-a-malicious-rootkit-or-not.1267682/

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-controversy-over-riots-vanguard-anti-cheat-software-explained/

The name is appropriate, because Vanguard doesn’t just sniff around for cheats when Valorant is running: It starts up with Windows and keeps an eye on other processes whether or not you’re playing Valorant at the time. […] Vanguard detects software with vulnerabilities which could be exploited by cheat makers, and blocks some of it.

https://www.sp-cy.com/article/is-valorants-anticheat-spyware/

Vanguard cannot be easily fully disabled since after manually quitting the process, a system reboot will be required to be able to open Valorant again.
The EULA prevents any legal recourse against Riot Games.
Valorant/Vanguard sends encrypted data to Riot. Which is Chinese owned by a giant corporation called Tencent.

Let’s attack this question from another perspective. Do you trust a games developer to properly develop kernel code? Most people BARELY trust Microsoft to do it these days. And you can’t review/evaluate it yourself at all. You have no fucking clue what they’re doing and never will. We’ve seen what happens when random companies inject shit into the kernel like crowdstrike did. You think that these anti-cheat softwares are acting in your interest when they’re being implemented and paid by a corporation? How can you look at these anti-cheats that have made backdoors on systems, cause people everywhere unstable kernels/BSODs, send data about your system without permission, interacts with software on your system that isn’t their code, etc… and say they’re not malicious?

This is already a risk whether via the existing thumbnail storage

Not anymore. You can opt out of it for the most part.

# Leave images unchanged, don’t generate any local thumbnails for post urls. Instead the the
# Opengraph image is directly returned as thumbnail
“None”

Yeah that was 19.4. It’s doesn’t proxy everything unless explicitly set to. Just thumbnails I believe. But I could be wrong. And many instance owners would be allergic to that as it leaves them on the hook for storing content. For example… someone posts CSAM… a copy of that is now on your server. You get police raided and you’re fucked.

https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/705e86eb4c0079d0775f0c1490968f1183095fcc/config/defaults.hjson#L51

Actually going over it briefly looks like it has a few available options for what it will cache…

I refuse to enable it myself for the above reason. I would venture 99% of instances out there would also refuse for liability and bandwidth costs.

Can you see which communities I follow?

Wouldn’t need to see it directly. If someone was to tag enough posts they could deduce it over time. Eg, I could post on every community on every lemmy in the fediverse and over time I can be reasonably sure which communities you follow as you’d see these post in your feed and tracking images would populate your view of them as you scrolled. Would take very little automation to do it.

Which feeds I watch (and when I do that)?

Yes… because it’s possible to use “normal” images to track who’s downloading those images, what addresses/user agent/referrers over time is powerful. After enough time, it’s entirely possible to deduce which feeds/communities you’re watching. Eg, if I post 10 different items, and 3 of them come back to your specific IP address, I would have a really good estimate on which feeds you’re likely on. Do this at scale and I bet you could deduce it completely and probably with much less time and hassle than you’re thinking. Hell because of my reverse proxy I can see EVERYONE who loads my profile picture. I see ALL the users to run into my posts on complete fucking accident. Lemmy loads /inbox to pull that data.

Hell this is the core reason why everyone pushes back on 3rd party cookies these days. It made this tracking trivial. Tagging every page with some image or asset that forces a connection is effectively the same thing.

Who I interact with through DMs?

I’ve already stated clearly that this would be the hardest thing. Just because there’s one or 2 things that would be hard or impossible to obtain (even over time) passively or as a complete outsider doesn’t make the rest of the argument wrong. All it would take is either site operator to leak the data, any type of MITM, etc… to leak the plaintext content of your DMs. Hell federation leaks where it sends data outside of the expected subscribers has happened. Then you have to also realize that many instances use services like Cloudflare or other WAF solutions to stop DDOS’s and such… Those nodes can read the plaintext DMs and all federation data. Any malicious actor that manages to break any single part of the chain has access to it all… and it can be quite trivial in many instances to do so.

The Lemmy system is not “secure”. It’s not meant to be. Everything on the fediverse is public and all of your actions here are trackable by many parties in many ways even outside of the operators of both ends of the federation action itself. Including how you’re connecting and using the system.

DMs alone, and actual hashed passwords are not really needed for a third party threat to act malicious and get all of the aggregated data they’d ever want. You pointed out specifics, I answered those specifics. Then you pivoted to other shit that I ALREADY outlined. This argument is super disingenuous.

Source for what in specific?

That stopping processes is a kernel action? Go ahead. Open powershell and ask it to close some other system process… The UAP prompt (if you’re on windows, linux will just fail silently most of the time unless you sudo or are root) that shows up is the kernel validating that you even have permissions to do that. The kernel handles ALL task scheduling/management. When you close something you’re asking the kernel to do it. The kernel also handles ALL file management and driver management (drivers being extensions of the kernel). So the fact that it can read other active DLLs and such hooked into other processes (say your graphics drivers) is literally proof.

That industry agrees that it’s malware? Depends on which part of industry I suppose. But if it’s able to do all these actions at the kernel level, and attached itself it to other software to install, often doesn’t uninstall when you remove the game it was attached to, AND gets flagged by anti-viruses that don’t have it whitelisted yet… It’s definitionally malware. Go search for “Is <insert anticheat> malware”. Very few people will argue that they’re not.

Hell it’s possible for anti-cheats to write to UEFI if they really wanted to. There’s no legitimate reason for that level of access, 0, none.

I’ve addressed the points you’ve brought up. I run my own instance. I can collect just about everything in the DB tables I’ve seen without being logged into the instance with some external work.

Are you trying to get my point? If you have a specific item that you believe is stored on a lemmy server that you think isn’t possible to obtain. I’m all ears. otherwise I think this conversation is done. This kind of response is pointless and I’m not interested in continuing if you’re going to act like that.

The hardest thing to collect would be private messages, and login information (which is hashed btw, so even your server operator doesn’t really know it). But messages are plaintext and openly federated. All the other information is really really easy to collect through other means.

They have kernel access… They can control anything since they’re in the kernel. And yes, I’ve seen it.

If you remember back in the late 2000’s early 2010’s there were a boatload of apps that would hook into games to do things like display overlays for chats (Teamspeak for example, overwolf as another.) some kernel anti-cheats would stop those processes from starting up.

But don’t take my word for it.

https://www.pcgamer.com/according-to-experts-on-kernel-level-anticheat-two-things-are-abundantly-clear-1-its-not-perfect-and-2-its-not-going-anywhere/

I’m less worried about developers abusing kernel access, and more concerned with potential vulnerabilities introduced for third-party actors to exploit. Rigney cited two examples: the infamous Extended Copy Protection (XCP) from Sony, which bad actors used to compromise affected systems, as well as a backdoor vulnerability introduced by Street Fighter 5’s kernel level anticheat. In 2022, a ransomware developer also took advantage of Genshin Impact’s kernel level anticheat to disable antivirus processes.

Introduces backdoors to be used by malicious actors.

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-controversy-over-riots-vanguard-anti-cheat-software-explained/

Vanguard detects software with vulnerabilities which could be exploited by cheat makers, and blocks some of it.

Blocks external softwares that it deems “vulnerable”

https://old.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/xf1cwr/the_insanity_of_eas_anticheat_system_by_a_kernel/

This is far from the first time that boot level firmware or kernel mode code inserted via patches or drivers have been used to install spyware, but every time I see it happen I want to warn users about the consequences, and provide some information about the danger.

Kernel devs beg users to not allow this shit.

Just look it up. All sorts of articles and experts have spoken on it.

Taking kernel level actions to stop processes on YOUR machine is absolutely taking control of the system.

Kernel level anti-cheats meet every requirement. Just because you think there’s gymnastics going on doesn’t make it so. It’s actually well established in the security field that they count.

I’m not sure that Nintendo has any pull in any Middle Eastern country or China.

But all of this is moot as the lawsuit is in the US… And Nintendo would just tell the streaming services to ban them over and over again.

that kind of threat doesn’t work when they can just tell your country to arrest you for breaking the law.

That assumes the country gives a shit. Many countries simply do not care about what Intellectual Property you “own” or created in some other country.

but that instance owners have even more, probably more valuable info, like IP addresses from which not just geolocation but also wake times, device usage patterns and other gnarly stuff could be extracted, that could - together with other personalized surveillance info (like the usual adware stuff) - be aggregated to give a bigger picture.

I have IP behind the geolocation. How do you think that I know the geolocation? It’s an IP lookup. My interface that I shown in the image just doesn’t publish it because I don’t care personally. What I use that service for is simply to track where sensitive emails/documents go. Not to track lemmy. I don’t need specific resolutions. Just to know if they leak outside of what I expected.

Device patterns? The app you use is the app you use. That would be given away via your browser header. I also collect that with the tracking image. Just once again. Not shown in the graph cause I don’t care to track it personally (I’m only doing this as an example, not to actually aggregate data).

If you use lemmy over the web browser, browsers don’t really give up that much information unless you’re google themselves. In which case apparently chrome gives up a boatload of information to google’s domains.

not-so-public information

You’d have to give me an example of any of what you’re referencing. I can collect IP, web headers, access times, and if I tag enough pages or mark the image as non-cacheable could even see multiple views/accesses (you see views higher than actual visitors) I can track your movement across all of the fediverse.

that one can get some info about me through my (public) actions

Simply “viewing” the page (which pulls the image and is not necessarily “public”) is a direct rebuttal to obtaining data that isn’t “public”.

Malware isn’t defined by its privileges but what it does.

Correct… and anything that intercepts all system calls and forces closed applications that it deems “not safe” even if I the user specifically run it is malware. You bet your ass they feed back information to the mothership too.

And btw, if you’re accepting the “Spyware” moniker from the other comment chain. Spyware is a form/category of malware.

Definition from Malwarebytes:

Hostile, intrusive, and intentionally nasty, malware seeks to invade, damage, or disable computers, computer systems, networks, tablets, and mobile devices, often by taking partial control over a device’s operations.

Hostile - it’s not meant to help you at all. If you’re doing something deemed “unsafe” in their eyes. They will take action up to and including stealing your money that you paid for the game. intrusive - embeds itself in the kernel Intentionally nasty - Well it’s not accidentally nasty.

invade - attached to games with little to no input on what you’re installing. disable computer systems - specifically the software you paid for Taking partial control over a device’s operations - the whole fucking kernel.

I’d say meeting the VAST majority of the definition and at least one portion of each category is sufficient to call them all malware.

instance owners have quite a lot more information on their user’s activities

Not really. Only thing additional that could be identified is browsing patterns while on the site itself. I don’t think it’s that valuable. You likely already gave up what you’re likely to see by commenting in communities. That’s going to be tracked best through a proxy or something, not lemmy itself. And can even be tracked externally through other means. Ex: This post has a tracking image on it and because you need to connect to me to load it I now see everyone that had loaded this comment. So this can be done externally without even being an instance owner. Click view source to see it at the end of the post.

Votes are federated, kbin instances see them as “likes” publicly. Messages are federated, sent in clear text. And posts that are loaded can be tracked via other means… Think of sites that display ads… They do this exact thing and collect information by the boatload because they can inject on every page that shows an ad. Without needing to be an admin on the site itself.

Edit: In theory someone could canvas/comment on every post with a bot and embed tracking images everywhere. Rotate usernames doing it from different servers and rotate through domains that are all cnamed back to the same tracking node and you could attack the whole fediverse with this type of tracking. Probably already being done… But it would be visible in that we have the ability to check source of each comment. But who the hell is going to take the time to do that?

Edit2: Here’s example of what was collected with that embedded image. Keep in mind that this type of tracking can happen with REAL images as well, making it impossible to track. And I’m specifically not tracking much of anything. But things like IP address used to access is on the backend. There’s also Browser, OS, referrers… etc…

Yeah the newer they are, the more frivolous they are

Filing for patent on a mechanic that’s been in the public for 28 years already is disingenuous as fuck. Pokemon started in 1996. The throw a ball at it thing has been out there for nearly 30 years. If you have filed a patent for it in all that time… and just now choose to. That’s just dumb. If they were to have applied for the patent the day that pokemon was thing in the USA… The patent would have expired 8 years ago. It’s untenable to accept these patents from Nintendo.

Correct. Canada and Mexico BOTH have “closed” borders and don’t just accept immigrants. In Mexico you cannot get citizenship and cannot own property. Canada actively complains to our sheriffs on the northern border for letting people go over to the north.

Americans need to clean up their own shit before assuming their self-assigned role as world police.

Not self-assigned when USA was the only serious country paying into NATO. Every other country failing to pay into NATO makes USA the de-facto police. Fortunately other countries have understood that and are now starting to pay more into NATO these days.

Prior to Quantum coming into the area, I was on Centurylink bonded vDSL. I got 140/25. The only reason I took that over the cox gigablast was because of the lack of data-cap. Higher speeds are useless if I can’t use that speed all the time. The vdsl was more useful at the slower speeds because I could max that lower speed out 24/7 for the whole month if I needed to. 140 at full bore was way more than the 1.2TB cap on coax… (Cox is 1.28TB cap, which you can hit in about 3 hours at full speed… The fuck is the point?)

Though since then… I’ve definitely grown into using much more bandwidth than I used to.

I remember 10mbit thinnet though. Hope you didn’t lose the termination plugs. Connecting more than 2 computers together was awesome. The IPX lan games started nearly immediately. We definitely have come a long way. While 8/8 is definitely not needed for 99% of people out there… the tired bullshit of 100/20mbps that most people seem to purchase and not even get is definitely not good enough.

Sorry not buying it. You may have had shit experiences with them, but I definitely haven’t. And I definitely don’t believe it’s some overarching hidden policy of theirs.
This month I’ve pushed nearly 100TB… I’ve never once called in for anything other than for them to fix their jank ass CX6500 (Fucking piece of shit, let me use my own SPF+ stick FFS). Although I’m sure I’d be more frustrated if I ever ran into any issues with billing or anything like that.

Last 30 days: 56.85TB download and 40.78TB upload.
Last 7 days: 8.02 TB down, and 6.27 up.

And I can still spawn speedtests/iperfs that hit near my max 8/8…

Even more importantly… Since it would be easy for them to just “not” throttle speedtest.net. I can pull out my phone on cellular network and speedtest against my own speedtesting server and match the speeds my phone gets speedtesting to a normal server (since my phone will never be able to saturate 8gbps anyway, but I still get into the 200-300mbps).

I’ve had users speedtest against my speedtesting server on other networks that were gigabit get those full speeds regularly.

I see those full speeds torrenting regularly. I see them regularly from steam downloads and other sources as well.

I will never understand why the United States insists on living about 30 years behind the rest of the planet.

Just because one shitty company has it doesn’t mean they all do. I have Quantum fiber which is 8/8 gbps at my house with no cap. Only costs me 165$ a month.

My cousin in a rural as shit location has fiber as well… 10/10 available for 240$. He currently does 1/1gbps and pays something like 65$