IMO, simple fact that the majority of drunk drivers survive accidents that kill their victim instantly shows that no higher power is looking out to punish the wicked or protect the innocent.

The aggressor, in the process of atoning for their atrocities, has no right to say that the recourse proposed by the victim is unreasonable.

We are the colonial aggressors, Indigenous people are the colonized victims.

Let’s say a man and a woman live in the same house, and the man hits the woman. If the man is truly seeking to atone for his crime, and the woman tells him to move out because even seeing his face is traumatic for her, would it be reasonable for the man to complain that he has nowhere else to go? To ask the woman where she thinks he should go? To try and guilt the woman into letting him stay? If he does any of those, is he truly sorry for what he did?

You’re right that most Indigenous people don’t want mass expulsion. We should be incredibly grateful for that and it’s a testament of their compassion and desire for equality among all people, even after all we did to them. What we shouldn’t do is tell them that they can’t tell us to leave or that we’d refuse to leave because we have a rightful claim to this land. Doing so is completely unproductive and will only serve to make us less deserving of staying.

I can confidently say that I, an North American with European decent, also have no interest in “waging a multi-generational genocide”; why must I be punished for it, then? Nobody gets to choose their ancestry.

The goal is not to punish anyone, nor is the goal to kick everyone out. The only goal of decolonization is to give back control of the land which was forcibly taken. Like Cowbee said, you give them the reigns, and then you let go. The logical extreme of this is that if they wanted everyone to leave, they could in theory, but that’s only a logical extreme and it doesn’t mean it will definitely happen. The majority of Indigenous groups make it pretty clear that’s not what they want out of decolonization.

Indigenous peoples are not interested in punishing you. Most aren’t even interested in having you go anywhere. They’re reasonable people with empathy and compassion. The notion that you were born here not by choice is not lost on them.

I think this thread is focusing way too much on the notion that Indigenous people could force you out of their land and many people are under the assumption that they will definitely treat you worse than the current government treats you for not being Indigenous. But honestly, the way the current government treats even non-Indigenous people is absolute shit and getting worse by the day, so there’s no reason not to think our lives would be better under Indigenous sovereignty.

I recommend the book The Red Deal: Indigenous Action to Save our Earth if you’re interested in what decolonization looks like from the perspective of Indigenous people. They certainly don’t solely think about benefiting themselves.

At what scale? I’d say it’s definitely closer to colonialism than it is to Indigenous wars. No doubt some Indigenous groups were capable of immense cruelty to those around them, but a continent wide ethnic cleansing is something utterly incomprehensible to even the most expansionist Indigenous groups.

Colonialism developed logistics, beauracy, and governing bodies specifically for genocide, which happened over generations. The people in charge of perpetuating it didn’t even know all the people they killed, the concept of those people alone were enough to condemn them. By contrast, even the largest scale Indigenous wars had the combatants reasonably familiar with those they were fighting.

As if indegenous societies never fought wars and claimed land between eachother.

Not at the scale colonialism has, no. Skirmishes and even conquest between individual tribes is fundamentally different from the systematic genocide of an entire continent’s population.

Not having to use JS is below all of those.

I hate how that’s the language everything is slowly converging to. Even if you don’t work on websites, you always have this fear in the back of your mind that one day your project will be infected.

It’s not even easy like people claim it is. I find JS significantly more difficult than Java because there are way more things that can go wrong and troubleshooting is way more frustrating. Just because the app will launch even with errors in the code does not make it easier in the long run. Compile time errors are good actually.

I’m not saying it’s okay or not okay to treat you like anything. I certainly don’t want you to be treated badly. I’m saying it’s not my place to say what Indigenous people want out of decolonization.

I admit I was being snarky in a lot of my replies because I was ticked off by your comments. You mentioned deportation and jail and I just said “yeah those are possibilities.” Reading it back I can see how I should have put more nuance into this.

I should definitely have stressed this in my previous responses, but Indigenous people are naturally extremely diverse and there is no single agreed upon narrative of what decolonization will entail. There will be some Indigenous groups that only want to be left alone on their land, but there will be others that don’t have a problem with anyone living on their land. You can see some of this diversity in the different Indigenous groups’ views on immigration, but those views are likely different from the views they will adopt after decolonization. The notion that all the Indigenous groups will either unanimously let you stay or tell you to leave is not the correct way to think about it.

Also, Indigenous territories overlap and Indigenous people generally have more nuanced ideas of “territory” and “ownership” compared to European cultures and their strict borders for property and sovereignty. Go to native-land.ca and see for yourself. Indigenous peoples tend to focus more on mutual agreements and understanding between neighbors as to who uses what resources, agreements which are fluid and based on the needs of the people living there, as opposed to drawing lines on a map. Concepts like citizenship and deportation are based on the European framework of sovereignty, not Indigenous ones.

As to what all this entails for the settlers living here? I can’t say. Everything in North America is built around colonialism and we settlers can’t really imagine what it will be like for all of that to be removed with any degree of accuracy. But I highly doubt there will be large scale forced expulsions. I’d say it’s more likely that the notions of property and land titles dissolve in favour of a more nuanced and community oriented approach to where people live. We will have to adopt this paradigm if we want to continue living here.

Tbh if you’re ever told to leave, this kind of mentality will probably be why.

Every Indigenous person I’ve ever met has been super nice and welcoming. They’re not out for revenge like you seem to think they are. I obviously can’t and shouldn’t speak on their behalf, but just from my limited experience talking to Indigenous people where I live, they’re perfectly willing to work with the people living here, Indigenous or not. Indigenous peoples have also been some of the first groups to advocate for the government to accept refugees, using the fact that it’s their land as an argument for people from elsewhere to live here. Your strawman notion of the racist, exclusionary Indigenous person who seeks to do to white people what they did to them is just that, a strawman.

You’re also working under the assumption that they will treat you worse than the current government treats you. News flash, even with white privilege, you’re currently being treated like you don’t have a right to the land. How much is your landlord charging you to live here? Do you have a right to a home under the current laws? No you don’t. If you lose all your money, you will become homeless, and plenty of jurisdictions outright criminalize homelessness and will throw you in jail because of it.

If you’re so concerned about it, maybe go talk to some of the Indigenous people in your area and work with them then. Give them a reason to let you stay. You complaining to two other settlers on Lemmy certainly won’t help your case.

So Spanish are just as bad as the English then. That doesn’t help your case.

Bruh, coming here was the theft itself. What part of stolen LAND do you not understand?

despite both groups only having that place to claim as a homeland.

Your claim isn’t even close to the magnitude of their claim. They’ve been here for over ten thousand years. They. Own. This. Continent. And. Always. Will.

And again, we displaced them. We are the colonizing class. I am calling for the reversing of what was done to them, which necessarily includes giving them back control over the land. I’m not saying they should displace anyone, but they alone have the choice.

Instead of complaining that indigenous people don’t have the right to remove you, maybe you should focus on contributing to decolonization so they have a reason to let you stay.

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The vast majority of “Israelis” are 100% European whose ancestors converted to Judaism.

There’s a reason Israel bans DNA tests. They want to keep up the illusion that they’re still descendants of the people the Torah talked about.

I have no right to say what they should do and neither do you.

I didn’t?

That’s supposed to make it better?

Not the indigenous people’s problem. If they tell you to leave, it’ll be up to you to figure it out.

I’m not saying that I’d necessarily agree with the expulsion of all settlers, but I’m saying it’s not my place to pass judgment and if they tell me to leave, it’s definitely not my place to argue why I have a right to this stolen land.

The “righting” of historical wrongs is not necessary for this

Yes it is. Some things are unforgivable and must be made right in its entirety. The people who benefited from that wrong, myself included, have absolutely zero right to comment on what that should entail.

This is an extremely white washed version of land back. Pretty sure land back means full control over what happens on that land, including what kind of people can live on it, something that is currently controlled exclusively by the colonial government.

If they’re feeling generous they might give you the option to stay on the condition that you assimilate into their culture.

You know, the thing Europeans forced Indigenous peoples to do. Not saying settlers should be forced through violence to do so, but I think it’s more than fair that if you’re going to stay, you have to assimilate.

But you’re not entitled to even assimilation if they just don’t want you here. And they have plenty of reason not to want you here.

I know that as a 1st gen Chinese immigrant to Canada (I came here as a kid so wasn’t my choice), if all the Indigenous groups where I live unambiguously told me to GTFO. I would in good conscience have to do so and hope I can use my birth certificate to reclaim Chinese citizenship. I’m by every definition a settler so it’s only fair. Whatever struggles I have in China (namely language barrier since I can barely read Chinese) I will have to deal with and it’s not on the Indigenous people to let me stay just because I can’t survive anywhere else.

Where you go back to and what happens to you isn’t the problem of the people you colonized. And by transferring that problem on to them, you are in fact perpetuating colonialism.