Don’t forget the material basis for these shifts! While The Discourse of “practical” truangulating centrists tends to show this rightward path, it is because (1) they were already fundamentally reactionary, they tend to just use this logic as an excuse for why they tolerate far-right positions, and (2) the right is supported by the ruling class to address some of the “problems” it creates, like a marginalized underclass that wants enough income to feed their children, housing, and safety from violence.

The shift right is not driven simply by debate or ideology, but by the arenas where degradation in material conditions due to capitalism meet the ruling class’ need to deflect blame to the marginalized (who they can reap larger profits from) to placate the less marginalized. Racism, nationalism, and extermination campaigns are created and maintained for the interests of capital, with the common people being pushed and prodded to fall in line with repeating the (usually ad hoc) new or recycled scapegoats and underclassrs. Wouldn’t want you to point blame in the right direction!

This is a bad faith meme that represents anyone making any form of compromise as a rude

They’re not depicted as rude, they’re depicted as an know-it-all eager compromiser that ends up working for the forces of reaction because they have no real principles or red lines.

close-minded

That is generally the attitude of “centrists” and people that go out of the way to congratulate themselves on “being practical” by triamgulating. If they were open to actual principles they eould no longer be triangulating on them, and triangulating is their primary commitment.

genocide supporter

Like virtually every Democratic member of Congress and both of their presidential candidates? Anyone tolerating that is indeed complicit. It does not require any mental gymnastics to acknowledge this.

posted by an account that frequently posts pro-China

No!!! I almost passed out when I read that. You’re telling me there are good aspects of a designated enemy of empire!? Impossible.

Open-minded btw.

sometimes pro-Russia propaganda

Not another designated enemy!!! I almost died when I read this.

and hops between Western country-focused lemmy’s pending election cycles.

Is this supposed to imply something bad about them?

Set up a proper backup system for your server. I like to use borg. Just to be safe, make a copy of your drive as well (like full disk rsync). Then do a clean install and restore as if your drive had failed. If your backups missed anything, you will now know and can fix your backup system and can still recover from your rsync’d drive.

You might also want to take this opportunity to start administering your server with code, like using ansible or other remote provisioning tools. This makes your system configuration reproducible so that you only really need to back up a few kinds of data like media files or databases.

America has already used all of the tools of fascism before, often to greater extremes. Lebensraum found its inspiration in Manifest Destiny, for example.

Expect to see things you have seen before, but now with clearer eyes. When Dems want to double their police forces and tighten preparedness of the national guard instead of maintaining or increasing social spending, recognize that the boots they are lacing are intended for your necks.

It will be strikingly similar to the last 4 years but the partisan narratives will simply flip in various ways, as will those of allied media. The bad things that the Trump admin did in his first term that became suddenly tolerable, ir even “good” under Biden? They will be back to being good again. Dem politicians will be back to calling themselves “the resistance” despite losing another layup because they could not do more than campaign on “at least we aren’t them” while presiding over a genocide and economic decline for the average person, both with intentional policies. Remember that they are all PR and cynicism and are lying to you about what they will do, as they are not beholden to a disorganized public in any way.

To be clear, bad things will be happening. It is only reasonable to feel some despair for them, but if you can allow that to motivate you to substantive action you can escape merely being a witness to suffering and can begin to work materially against it. Much of that suffering was going to happen anyways or a different form of suffering may have happened under a Harris regime. It’s not like Democrats did much with their power, they tend to pretend they have no party discipline or power even when thry have the presidency and Congress, so they allowed the major shifts at state levels to occur largely unheeded and served a right wing agenda at the national level. So it is important yo ask the question of what action you can take that does not depend on expecting Democrats to save you. They won’t. What we need are other organizations, ones that organize independently of ans often in opposition to the Democrats, Dems who otherwise suck up all political energy demanding improvements to people’s lives and turn it into more cops and wars.

So, the two ingredients to effective organizations are political education and organization building. The former is just an organized form of reading and teaching, and it is essential because we have all internalized false ideas of how politics functions. They are taught to us by the ruling interests that keep us disempowered *because * this keep them in power. The latter is about growing and improving an organization so that it can have greater and greater leverage and develop strategies for gaining and wielding power (and power is not things like letter writing campaigns to already-elected ghouls, it is making demands that must be met or else).

You can enjoin this kind of project in many ways. You don’t need to jump deeply into a hardcore organization straightaway; it can be useful to join one that is only oushing yourself moderately at first. Maybe a mutual aid organization or a single issue or single community group. The important thing is that it is of the left and therefore not of thr Democratic party. You can also engage in your own political education independently if you’d like, which can keep the pressure down when you are first starting out with irl left work.

And of course please do rely on whatever community you already may have, including here. I am happy to chat here or via DMs if you’d like and can answer basically any question you might have. I’m also happy to recommend readings that you may find useful or helpful.

Also, a reminder that community can start with just one other person, you don’t need to personally create a large organization overnight.

The left inherently recuperates through political education, but cannot do much about the society of the spectacle without winning revolution, as it does not have cultural hegemony. Debordists would traditionally go on mindfulness field trips and such, which is fun, but not really building power.

The left needs to build: it needs more and members. This means political education and doing organizing work, with everyone levelling up skills, planning and executing actions, recruiting, studying, and running education programs for the recruited. And all of this means nothing without the context of an organization, so join one that looks good and revisit your decision every few years as you develop politically yourself.

At this point you are basically uncomprehensible because you aren’t using the quote feature and your thoughts are disorganized, providing insufficient context for what point you are trying to make. Plus, I am getting very repetitive because the fundamental problem here is an intransigent combination of arrogance and ignorance - your defensiveness despite clearly knowing virtually nothing abiyt this topic and relying on deflection and invention to resist correction. A curious person would at least go read a bit to see if the things I’m referring to have grounding and develop their own education this way. Unfortunately you are against your own education on this topic and that is not something I can fix on your behalf. The lack of self-reflection to even make yourself comprehensible is an example of this, it has escalated to the point of communication itself being nearly impossible.

If you are at some point interested in a good faith discussion where you acknowledge what you do and do not know and what you will spend time learning, let me know.

If Israel has a working class, it is one of settlers, IDF soldiers, etc. Those are not the “good guys”.

There is a longstanding and incorrect view of Western leftists in the capacity of the Israeli working class to build their power and address the injustices. That class has no capacity to do so whatsoever. They are fully bought-off by the ethnocentric project, both materially and psychologically. This is not very different from how other settler colonist “working classes” did the same. If anything, it is an important lesson that the working class is not a moral quantity, it is a group defined by its relation to production, and only through political education can it gain agency for positive change.

Mandela’s imprisonment was a big deal in the west, despite governments labeling him as a terrorist, his story galvanized significant international support.

Oh, you mean a primary operative of the ANC that pushed hard to start their guerilla efforts? lmao

Cute that you accuse me of fairy tales while you’re the one spouting all the messaging about a clearly losing party that could only win if only the air planes went away.

I haven’t said that, actually. You have confused yourself again.

I’m afraid complexity is real, though.

Complexity is real, but this topic is not. You are just incurious and, like other liberals, decide to whitewash that ignorance as a recognition of (unstated, unidentifiable) complexity. A cop-out, basically. Notice that you have basically nothing to say about the alleged complexity. Nothing that actually challenges anything I’ve said.

Humans are a mess, and do things for all manner of reasons, despite our faiths trying to oversimplify everything into some imaginary god or single philosophy of materialism.

Okay bro just one more toke bro. You are so confused, I don’t even know where to begin. When did we begin discussing materialism or philosophy? Buddy, we are stuck at the basics of things like not lying and remembering what we are talking about and how you should read before sharing opinions.

You may have addressed it, but you’re simply nonsensical.

I don’t know what you’re referring to and I don’t care to try to figure out out. Be clearer in your thoughts and words or use the quote feature.

Nitpicking pointless details. Fine, all fighters for the North Vietnamese were not the sole cause for victory.

I didn’t say anything like that either lmao. You seem to have no idea what is happening most of the time, it’s like you don’t even read what I said.

It takes two sides to end a war, a side has to accept its defeat. The US only accepted its defeat due to domestic factors, there were plenty of war hawks keen to keep going.

I’ve already addressed this. I will wait for you to respond to what I said instead of endlessly repeating yourself.

No, I am not the one looking at a sole cause. I acknowledged the efficacy of the guerilla campaign. The one looking at sole causes is you, pointing to that guerilla campaign. I am saying it alone is not enough, more factors were necessary.

Same as before, I don’t know what you’re referring to and don’t care to go and figure it out. Use the quote feature or organize your thoughts.

Uh huh, shift all the blame to cover for yourself, very convenient. It’s pretty clear to see a political agenda instead of an honest intellectual conversation though.

I am having a very honest conversation, but it is in no way intellectual. We are, as I said, stuck at very basic things like, “is it okay to lie?” and, “do I need to actually go and try to learn things before having and sharing my half-baked opinions?” and, “maybe what will help is a series of confused generalizations about faith and god and philosophy of materialism with no relation to what anyone else is talking about”. We could only ever have an intellectual conversation if you were in any way interested in an intellectual topic. To be perfectly frank, this topic does not require much in the way of an intellectual discussion, it is mostly about establishing basic facts of which you are entirely ignorant and obstinately refuse to engage with our educate yourself about, but you do seem to think that I am at fault for not accepting your nonsense fabrications you offer as substitute.

Your whole thrust is in defense of hamas.

I’m not certain that I’ve even mentioned Hamas in this conversation. I certainly wouldn’t reduce the Palestinian resistance to only Hamas. I think you are just projecting your own lightweight understanding of the topic onto me.

Mine is not in support of Israel’s genocide, though, just in an accurate understanding of what’s going on, no matter who it reflects poorly upon.

But you have no understanding of what is going on. Nearly everything is clearly a revelation to you. There is rarely anything concrete or specific in what you say and when there is it is usually wrong or misleading. When I provide concrete specifics you just make things up to be contrarian and rescue your prior fibbing. You are acting in the exact opposite way that you are currently claiming.

The real propagandist here is pretty clearly you, you are attempting to positively participate in an ongoing military conflict, and help one of the two sides. I understand, but don’t throw stones when the real agent is yourself.

Agent? What? I of course stand with the Palestinian resistance, this is obvious and I in no way hide it. And propaganda is just an attempt to convince others of political positions through argument and presentation. We all engage in it. But mine is accurate, informed, and just.

Unfortunately you have decided that the important thing here is your ego and not, say, the Palestinians themselves. God forbid you learn anything about them.

You seem to like your “truths”, but that just speaks to your deep and abiding faith. That’s religious talk.

Those are your words, not mine. You’re just telling yourself stories and believing them again.

I prefer hard evidence, and I don’t trust internet anecdotes.

You clearly do not, you are not interested in investigating this topic whatsoever. You prefer to use requests for evidence to have other people fetch things for you and then use them purely rhetorically.

The borders around Gaza have been set for decades, it isn’t the West Bank. These aren’t fresh settlements of right wing settlers that just moved in.

Decades is not a very long time, per this topic. Refugees in Gaza exist who were kicked from their homes in the nearby area in living memory. If you actually stated your point, though, it might be easier to address it.

There was no evidence of any sort of successful widescale resistance to the Oct 7th attack, which would not have been the case had the border kibbutz been camps of armed jailors, as you attempt to portray.

So many qualifiers. The Kibbutzim did fire back, it is one of the reasons many were killed in the first place, per first hand accounts. Several articles have been written about Kibbutz Be’eri, presumably to provide the most favorable of narratives, and in dire need of a skeptical lens, but of course these articles tend to mention that the Kibbutz has an armory of M16 rifles that the settlers almost immediately ran to. This is standard in such locations, they are little walled, armed communities. You would know this if you were ever in any way curious about the topic instead of approaching what I say with ignorant contrarianism.

No more generalized than your sweeping assertion of material causes.

Hardly. My claims re: material basis is about actual settler-colonial bases, both current and historical, and this is an inarguable fact of settler-colonialism: it requires that the settlers feel reasonably safe and secure on their stolen lands. Israeli society makes much of this, they talk about their iron dome often and the necessity, but also success, of their high level of militarization against Palestinians. And when you look to polling, and the politics of Israel, you will find that they are outraged over a loss of status, of an inability to return the hostages, of being forced from the area around Gaza and from Northern Israel, and that in return they want military escalation and death. When the government launches new campaigns, when they bomb residential neighborhoods, their ratings go up.

If you deigned to read and engage with what I had said about this material basis, you would not be saying such silly things.

Not everything is concrete, ultimately, humans do very stupid shit sometimes. Like I said, fundamentally illogical. Our decisions are based on the firing of neurons in our brains, which are not limited to solely material causes. If you weren’t faith-blinded, you could see this. It’s common sense, and very much an everyday occurrence.

This sounds like the “deep” thoughts of an high mediocre college freshman. Who knows what your point is. Apparently you think your appeal to your belief in “illogic” is somehow comparable to the decades of settler colonialism and the psychology basis of settlers, long studied and described by the oppressed who wage resistance against them. You seem to think your imaginary vague idea of people “being illogical” is far more reliable analysis than, say, settlers needing to feel secure in their occupation, arming themselves, building up a series of racist oppressions to do so, etc. You have no real response to this, which is why you can barely string these thoughts together.

The IDF is 400k strong by last estimate, who knows what it’s up to now. This is more of your faith speaking

Again these are your words and then you say it is “more of my faith”, lmao. You are deeply confused.

PS the IDF is mostly teenagers and young 20-somethings with inflated titles that fall apart in any real fight. The Zionist press is absolutely chock full of articles about how “the troops” lack capacity due to attrition (casualties and psychologically) and cannot fight in Lebanon.

a blind trust that without advanced weaponry, Israel somehow falls apart.

I actually already mentioned some specific examples of why their doctrine falls apart without constant supplies from the US. If only you had the courage of your convictions to directly address what I had said. Instead you play little games.

It makes no sense in the cold light of day. 400k soldiers is a lot. You can man a border and enforce a famine with that many.

These forces can’t even push much more than a hair into Lebanon and that is with massive air support.

Wow. I think Israel’s early wars, where the entire Arab coalition was crushed without the aid of air power

Israel has never won a war without air power and full support of a major imperialist sponsor, whether it was the British or US. You are simply making things up again.

Fine, allow me to clarify my question.

It occurs to me that you don’t know how to use the quote feature of Lemmy. Perhaps you are too proud to ask? It is not always clear what you are responding to.

Does Netanyahu’s government look like it is failing in its current objectives?

This question is too vague. An entire government has many objectives addressing different topics. Do you want me to list objectives for you? Or do you have some in mind to make your question more clear?

Huh, so you’re saying the destruction of Gaza was all part of the plan? An indication of weakness? That’s a pretty twisted path to victory, you’re just going to get them all killed. Unfortunately, far more genocides have succeeded through history than liberation battles. That’s the sad reality of the world we live in, it’s what we have to work with.

Every resistance fighter in Palestine knows that the Zionists will respond with incredible cruelty and a massively outsized response. The ratios of killed or wounded are typically 10:1 or more. These decisions are made with full eyes about what it means to provoke and escalate, but it is the same logic as those of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. It is people who see a slow genocide and displacement as guaranteed from the status quo and from all other realistic paths provided. And they set out a plan to disrupt the Zionist entity, to agitate, which will, knowingly, create a disproportionate response, in order to forward their goals of resistance, to undermine Zionist security, to test their own capacity for war, to bleed their enemy through the tactics I have already mentioned.

If you actually cared to learn anything about this topic, you would already know this. They have repeatedly made public statements about this. There is a reason they call their fallen compatriots martyrs. There is a reason they place emphasis on mourning via righteousness and solidarity and not simply despair.

That’s cute, but again, your path to victory is a farce. Israel is not losing, except in your fantasies. It’s objectives move steadily closer and closer to success, hamas’ do not.

Israel is now well-known to be a genocidal ethnostate, a rogue state. The world stands against them. Again, something you would know if you weren’t locked in a box of propaganda. Along with regional allies, Israel is in turmoil and on the brink of falling apart, with its credit ratings tanking every few months. It is a country dependent on finance capitalism, with related industries like tech, and those workers have largely fled. It is attempting to lash out and provoke further war, and it is succeeding only at, yet again, mass killing of civilians without actually addressing the fundamental collapse within.

If you cared about this topic you would already know these things.

No, air power is not necessary to man a border or keep checkpoints closed, that’s silly.

It is when you are a 19-year-old Israeli brigadier-general whose CO just got sniped in front of them. They can barely operate without overhwelming air support. This is their war doctrine, it is identical to the Americans’. You would already know this if you cared about this topic.

Okay, so what about the ground assaults the IDF has conducted into Gaza?

They only occur after massive civilian bombing campaigns and they routinely lose to guerillas. They declare an area cleared and then resistance fighters pop back up a few days later. Their allegedly new strategy in North Gaza is to begin more thoroughly razing it via bombings because they simply cannot win against the guerillas with their soldiers.

You would already know this if you cared about this topic. One wonders if you will someday acquire shame at this poor behavior.

Quite a large amount of footage came out from both hamas and IDF sources showing ground fighting. The IDF continued to advance.

All of this occurred under conditions of full air support and bombing campaigns. Did you forget what we were talking about? I think so.

Israel has domestic manufacturing too, by the way, they produce their own tanks and small arms, drones are not difficult.

Nowhere near enough. They are dependent on US weapons and materials and logistical support.

The ANC was driven underground, its leadership fled or arrested. That’s crushed.

The ANC, as well as the rest of the tripartite group, was underground for 3 decades during which it made nearly all of its major advances. “Crushed”, lmao. Who do you think the apartheid government negotiated with? You know nothing about this topic.

Yes, it persisted underground, and eventually entered peaceful negotiations, this is true, but alone it would have never accomplished these goals.

Nobody ever said the ANC was alone. It had quite a substantial amount of support from the Soviets, for example, as well as the Cubans and the Palestinian resistance. You are simply ignorant of the history.

The state of Israel is an apartheid ethnostate. No apartheid ethnostate should exist, just like it is good that apartheid South Africa no longer exists and was displaced through armed resistance, negotiations, and a plebiscite.

So, tell me which Nazi bars you hang out in where the only “qualified” people are pro-ethnostate.

I mean, let’s say they are for the sake of argument, what Palestinian kibbutzim/IDF did Hamas target on Oct 7?

Kibbutz and IDF are Israeli settler entities, not Palestinian.

As you now know, the Zionist project is one by Europeans who colonized and ethnically cleansed large regions of Palestine in the last 120 years or so. Ethnic supremacist myths about stolen Palestinian homes being on Israeli homelands are unacceptable.

lmao imagine being this easy to fool

lmao 1200 BC

Buddy, Zionism is a European settler colonial project from the 1800s that emerged as a response to European antisemitism but is of course, itself, deeply ethnocentric and racist.

All resistance to the occupation, which has repeatedly engaged in ethnic cleansing, is justified under international law. They have now, for a years engaged in a fast genocide, which makes choosing a side very easy so long as you aren’t yourself deeply racist.

Great-grandchildren are being punished because their relatives (might) have fought against Israel back then.

They are punished because they are Palestinian and Israelis are racist occupiers.

Aren’t the Israeli politicians realizing they are fueling the conflict by doing this?

Yes, of course. Israel has a long record of maximum escalation and starting wars and ethnic cleansing. They have official doctrines of killing as many civilians as possible in bombing campaigns rather than engaging with fighters directly.

Israelis are incredibly racist.

P.S. I am from Germany, imagine new generations still had to suffer for the crimes the Nazis committed. That would be unforgiving and unjustified. It is our job to make sure this never happens again, though.

Good on you for having this position despite the racism of your government against solidarity with Palestine!

It’s clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years.

This is a Zionism / Palestinian (and any other independence groups, really) “conflict”, which is to say, occupation and rrsistance.

But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.

Diplomacy requires leverage and is not an inherent good on its own. Diplomacy can be a tool for delay, propaganda, and for achieving a lopsided deal with false representatives. All of these things have been done via US/Israeli “diplomacy” regarding Paleetine.

You see a people forced into a ghetto fighting back and say, “no that’s not the way” as if you have any understanding and have earned an opinion. An important lesson to learn is when you should have no opinion until you become informed.

I’m arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don’t have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.

The divide is already there. It is genocidal settler-colonial apartheid vs. freedom fighters. And the camps throwing in for each side of this. Personally, I don’t find it difficult to place myself fully in the freedom fighter camp and against the genociders. Do you? And no, there is no third option because there is no third force with any leverage or will.

When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed.

The violence has already been here. What on earth are you talking about? What fantasy world do you live in where passive Palestinians are left alone? The Israeli project is premised on their oppression and expulsion.

And you are simply wrong in your generalization. Violence has been essential for virtually every liberation fight. This is not because the marginalized love violence, it is because the oppressor leaves no other options.

I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel.

Israel is an apartheid ethnostate doing a genocide. It is racist and horrible to wish the best for it.

And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It’s obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn’t start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.

You don’t deserve an opinion on this topic because you do not know anything about it. You do not get to set the terms of others’ freedom. You should spend your time helping the resistance, not rationalizing a fairy tale about how to oppose settler-colonial genocide with “diplomacy” and no militarized resistance.

The Zionist project was going full steam ahead prior to WWII. Zionists collaborated with Nazis to get Jewish people to emigrate or get deported to Palestine. And Holocaust survivors were often looked down on there are Jews that had not done the “right” thing of abandoning their homes to steal someone else’s in Palestine. Zionists spread some of the most antisemitix things you have ever heard when it comes to this topic.

The backer of Zionism simply switched hands after WWII. Before it was the British, then it was the US.

Arabs have been murdering Arabs for hundreds of years. To say Israel started it is not only wrong but spreading misinformation.

“Israel” was internationally recognized as established in the 1940s based on a European movement from the 1800s to create a settler-colonial ethnostate. Israel did start it, it is an occupying force that displaced Palestinians from their lands in living memory, implemented violent apartheid conditions, and is currently doing a genocide.

Your “Arabs just kill each other this isn’t different” is frankly just relying on racism to avoid actually addressing the real history.

Who started it is pointless at this point

No, it is very much an important point as it happened in recent history via occupation, terrorism, and forced immigration by European settlers backed by the British empire and then the US empire. You must ignore this in order to share the positions that you have.

but this anti Palestine sentiment from Israelis has been brewing for decades. For some context look up Arab-Israeli war of 1948

Anti-Palestinian sentiment has been a core part of the Zionist project since its inception. 1948 is when the largest expulsions happened, the war was a response to this occupation and aggression.